Author Topic: charger shut off device - looking for  (Read 2934 times)

Offline amaaretz

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2023, 10:49:04 AM »
I believe there are two distinct aspects to this discussion that were a little bit confused here, leading to some conflicting information.

Firstly, there used to be the concern of overcharging a battery. Overcharging, which involves supplying additional power to a battery even when it is already fully charged, can lead to overheating and ultimately result in battery failure. This problem - as you correctly noted - has become exceedingly rare in modern times due to protections in the devices and power adapters.

On the other hand, as mentioned by others, there remains a separate issue related to the constant discharge and recharge cycles that batteries undergo. This process gradually deteriorates the battery over time, as each battery has a limited number of charges it can sustain before experiencing capacity loss and other related issues. While this concern is considerably less significant than the risk of overcharging, it is still worth considering (and try some of the mitigates available as mentioned and linked.)
Those are not distinct issues, they pertain to the same battery and charging regulation that all modern devices ship with.

When you leave modern laptop plugged into a high quality charger, the battery will sit at or near 100%. It will not run through charge cycles, by the very fact that it is plugged in. And when it does draw power to top it off as you use it, it does so in a manner that doesn't generate excess heat - which is the common denominator between all of the "distinct" concerns.

Offline Yisroel Tech

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2023, 11:00:23 AM »
...the battery will sit at or near 100%...
How does it do that? By constantly charging it, bringing it up from 99% or so to 100% (and not by stopping to charge it and have the device work off the power from the cable.)

And this, is actually quite an issue for the lifespan of the battery. Of course nothing close to the old overcharging problem, but still.

The main solution done by devices for this (when set up this way with a special software or setting, batteries themselves do not do that) is to make the battery not charge up to 100% so not to keep on putting the stress on the battery (since for the battery keeping the full 100% charge is much less "comfortable" and makes it wear out quicker, especially if it's again and again and again charged from a bit lower back up to 100%.


Offline amaaretz

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2023, 11:02:37 AM »
How does it do that? By constantly charging it, bringing it up from 99% or so to 100% (and not by stopping to charge it and have the device work off the power from the cable.)

And this, is actually quite an issue for the lifespan of the battery. Of course nothing close to the old overcharging problem, but still.

The main solution done by devices for this (when set up this way with a special software or setting, batteries themselves do not do that) is to make the battery not charge up to 100% so not to keep on putting the stress on the battery (since for the battery keeping the full 100% charge is much less "comfortable" and makes it wear out quicker, especially if it's again and again and again charged from a bit lower back up to 100%.
I'm not sure I follow.

The only issue that ever causes battery degradation is heat. Modern regulated devices, when remaining plugged in, top off the charge that the user is using in a manner that eliminates the problem of excess heat. Some do this by trying to keep the battery below, say, 90%; and some do this by going between 99% and 100% in a certain way. So long as they prevent excess heat, the battery is not degrading in the manner you're concerned about.

Offline Yisroel Tech

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2023, 11:13:05 AM »
The only issue that ever causes battery degradation is heat
Incorrect. The battery's lifespan/capacity can also be diminished by repeatedly charging the device to its maximum capacity of 100% (or even 99%) and then discharging it before recharging, regardless of whether heat is a concern or not. (Similar to how a disk has a - high but - limited number of writes and reads before experiencing wear and tear.)

Offline amaaretz

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2023, 11:14:36 AM »
Incorrect. The battery's lifespan/capacity can also be diminished by repeatedly charging the device to its maximum capacity of 100% (or even 99%) and then discharging it before recharging, regardless of whether heat is a concern or not. (Similar to how a disk has a - high but - limited number of writes and reads before experiencing wear and tear.)
No. The only thing that causes a battery to degrade is heat. Charge cycles are one of the factors that cause heat.

Keeping a regulated device plugged into a regulator charger:
1. Does not go through charge cycles by virtue of the fact that it is constantly plugged in.
2. Does not generate excess heat when topping off by virtue of the fact that it is regulated.

Offline Yo ssi

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2023, 04:43:24 PM »
No. The only thing that causes a battery to degrade is heat. Charge cycles are one of the factors that cause heat.

Keeping a regulated device plugged into a regulator charger:
1. Does not go through charge cycles by virtue of the fact that it is constantly plugged in.
2. Does not generate excess heat when topping off by virtue of the fact that it is regulated.
See end of this page

The current consensus on lithium-ion batteries is that it's effected in two ways.
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Offline amaaretz

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2023, 04:44:06 PM »
See end of this page

The current consensus on lithium-ion batteries is that it's effected in two ways.
Unable to click the hyperlink, can you post the link in full?

Offline Yisroel Tech

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2023, 04:44:58 PM »

Offline amaaretz

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2023, 04:48:23 PM »
https://www.apple.com/batteries/maximizing-performance/
I don't get it. It literally goes on to discuss how optimized their devices are, and explicitly say that they regulate the heat in order to prevent degradation.

At the end of the page, which you directed me to look at, It advises users to remove certain cases while charging - specifically because of heat.

As I said, there is no factor other than heat to consider in battery degradation, and modern devices and high quality chargers are regulated in that regard.

Offline Yisroel Tech

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2023, 04:51:15 PM »
I don't get it. It literally goes on to discuss how optimized their devices are, and explicitly say that they regulate the heat in order to prevent degradation.

At the end of the page, which you directed me to look at, It advises users to remove certain cases while charging - specifically because of heat.

As I said, there is no factor other than heat to consider in battery degradation, and modern devices and high quality chargers are regulated in that regard.
Emphasis mine, no heat mentioned for this part:
Quote
To reduce battery aging, built-in software and hardware systems are included to manage charging patterns and battery temperature.

Optimized Battery Charging and Optimized Charge Limit adapt to your daily usage and preserve your battery lifespan over time. Optimized Battery Charging is available on all platforms as of iOS 13, watchOS 7, and macOS Big Sur. Based on your daily charging routine, it may automatically defer charging to 100% until shortly before you need to use the battery. Apple Watch Ultra can further reduce time spent at high states of charge by learning when to charge to an Optimized Charge Limit and when to allow for a full charge.

Offline amaaretz

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2023, 04:52:25 PM »
Emphasis mine, no heat mentioned for this part:
I don't disagree with any of this. As it said earlier on in that page, the cause of degradation is heat.

As I am saying, they have taken steps to regulate it.

No inconsistencies as far as I could tell

Offline Yo ssi

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2023, 04:57:29 PM »
I was referring to the very end, it's pretty clear. (Do some googling there is extensive research on this, Apple is by no means the primary source)
Quote
If you want to store your device long term, two key factors will affect the overall health of your battery: the environmental temperature and the percentage of charge on the battery when it’s powered down for storage. Therefore, we recommend the following:

• Do not fully charge or fully discharge your device’s battery — charge it to around 50%. If you store a device when its battery is fully discharged, the battery could fall into a deep discharge state, which renders it incapable of holding a charge. Conversely, if you store it fully charged for an extended period of time, the battery may lose some capacity, leading to shorter battery life.
• Power down the device to avoid additional battery use.
• Place your device in a cool, moisture-free environment that’s less than 90° F (32° C).
• If you plan to store your device for longer than six months, charge it to 50% every six months.
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Offline Yisroel Tech

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2023, 04:57:56 PM »
I don't disagree with any of this. As it said earlier on in that page, the cause of degradation is heat.

As I am saying, they have taken steps to regulate it.

No inconsistencies as far as I could tell
They have taken steps "to allow you to have a setting" to solve it. And most laptops do not have such a setting, and certainly not by default.

In your view that charging to 100% is fine given that the charging is now smart and regulated, then why the heck would Apple not have those "regulating mechanisms" instead of not charging the device to 100%?! They obviously know that having it not always charged at 100% or almost 100% might get you in a surprise where you need to stop charging and you're missing out on juice on the go.

But no. If you want to really "preserve your battery lifespan over time" and you turn on this setting, then they will "defer charging to 100%" (which means they will keep it like 80%-85%.)

And laptops do not do this!

Offline Yisroel Tech

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2023, 04:58:34 PM »
I was referring to the very end, it's pretty clear. (Do some googling there is extensive research on this, Apple is by no means the primary source)
This part is only for when storing, and not using it... (while I do not see why it should differ, one can claim that it does.)

Offline Yo ssi

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2023, 04:59:47 PM »
And laptops do not do this!
Lenovo to it's credit does have an option.

Userna..?
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Offline amaaretz

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2023, 05:03:31 PM »
They have taken steps "to allow you to have a setting" to solve it. And most laptops do not have such a setting, and certainly not by default.

In your view that charging to 100% is fine given that the charging is now smart and regulated, then why the heck would Apple not have those "regulating mechanisms" instead of not charging the device to 100%?! They obviously know that having it not always charged at 100% or almost 100% might get you in a surprise where you need to stop charging and you're missing out on juice on the go.

But no. If you want to really "preserve your battery lifespan over time" and you turn on this setting, then they will "defer charging to 100%" (which means they will keep it like 80%-85%.)

And laptops do not do this!
These are not settings you need to turn on, these are the very regulations we are discussing that every single modern device has. They do also come with settings, but these have nothing to do with battery regulation in terms of battery health. This is for battery longevity, so that it doesn't die quicker based on your usage patterns.

We are on completely different playing fields here, and are having two different conversations.

In response to OP's question, I reiterate:
The only thing that  degrades a batteries health over time is heat. Modern devices and high quality chargers regulate that. Whether it is by not allowing it to charge to 100 when it is plugged in, or any other way, It is not a concern.

Offline Yo ssi

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Re: charger shut off device - looking for
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2023, 05:05:33 PM »
These are not settings you need to turn on, these are the very regulations we are discussing that every single modern device has. They do also come with settings, but these have nothing to do with battery regulation in terms of battery health. This is for battery longevity, so that it doesn't die quicker based on your usage patterns.

We are on completely different playing fields here, and are having two different conversations.

In response to OP's question, I reiterate:
The only thing that  degrades a batteries health over time is heat. Modern devices and high quality chargers regulate that. Whether it is by not allowing it to charge to 100 when it is plugged in, or any other way, It is not a concern.
LOL
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