Author Topic: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh  (Read 4470 times)

Offline ReadsTheT&C

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Offline arie

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 01:57:49 AM »
He writes: 'But modesty is not defined by, or even primarily about, how much of oneís body is covered'.

That is a false statement. While you may argue there is more to Tznius than just covering one's body, it definitely is big part of of it

Offline skyguy918

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 08:55:45 AM »
He writes: 'But modesty is not defined by, or even primarily about, how much of oneís body is covered'.

That is a false statement. While you may argue there is more to Tznius than just covering one's body, it definitely is big part of of it

We're talking about the dean (it would have to qualify as a Yeshiva for him to be a Rosh Yeshiva) of Chovevei Torah. They don't really pay much attention to halacha over there.

Offline ReadsTheT&C

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2012, 10:30:44 AM »
We're talking about the dean (it would have to qualify as a Yeshiva for him to be a Rosh Yeshiva) of Chovevei Torah. They don't really pay much attention to halacha over there.
talk about sinat chinam, what makes you say that?

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2012, 10:49:53 AM »
We're talking about the dean (it would have to qualify as a Yeshiva for him to be a Rosh Yeshiva) of Chovevei Torah. They don't really pay much attention to halacha over there.

thats quite a  statement...

Offline mercaz1

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2012, 11:11:12 AM »
he does make one or two good points

Offline skyguy918

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2012, 11:59:26 AM »
talk about sinat chinam, what makes you say that?
I don't hate the author, not at all. It doesn't mean I have to have to think highly of his stances on various issues in Judaism, whether hashkafic or halachic, or of his institution. Do you know anything about Avi Weiss and/or Chovevei Torah? Are you just being curious or do you actually hold an opinion of the institution and its staff contrary to mine?

thats quite a  statement...
If I may backtrack a little, I would say they have little to no allegiance to mesorah, which in my eyes, and the eyes of the vast majority of orthodox Rabbis, is nearly as important as halacha itself. As such, it doesn't surprise me to see that the author de-emphasizes and almost denigrates the central embodiment of tznius in halacha.
Quote
Jewish tradition teaches men and women alike that they should be modest in their dress. But modesty is not defined by, or even primarily about, how much of oneís body is covered.
Quote
In fact, though, their actions objectify and hyper-sexualize women. Think about it: By saying that all women must hide their bodies, they are saying that every woman is an object who can stir a manís sexual thoughts. Thus, every woman who passes their field of vision is sized up on the basis of how much of her body is covered. She is not seen as a complete person, only as a potential inducement to sin.
The fact is that halacha proscribes how a Jew should dress. Halacha says that every woman can in fact stir a man's sexual thoughts. Does that mean that halacha intrinsically objectifies women sexually? Of course not. But that follows very clearly from his logic.

he does make one or two good points
To me, the most important point he makes, which I agree with completely and feel is hashkafically emes, is this:
Quote
Judaism... places the responsibility for controlling menís licentious thoughts about women squarely on the men.
The rest of it gets a little weird. I obviously don't agree what goes on in Beit Shemesh, but I probably don't agree with the author's shitos/hashkafos on tznius. I had been responding to the first comment about the definition of tznius.

Offline LAXtraveler

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2012, 12:23:38 PM »
I don't hate the author, not at all. It doesn't mean I have to have to think highly of his stances on various issues in Judaism, whether hashkafic or halachic, or of his institution. Do you know anything about Avi Weiss and/or Chovevei Torah? Are you just being curious or do you actually hold an opinion of the institution and its staff contrary to mine?

While I may not agree with much of the YCT stances on halacha, etc. I would not go so far as to say they don't pay attention to it. Their approach is definitely not mainstream, whether it is to halacha or mesora, but to say outright they don't pay attention to either I think is oversimplifying their stance (and yes I know plenty about both Avi Weiss and YCT).

I have many issues with YCT and the stances they propound, but I don't think it's fair to paint everyone there the same. I don't even think every person that comes out of YCT believes/subscribes to what Avi Weiss or some other like minded Rabbis believe in.

I would be cautious making huge statements that they don't pay much attention to halacha or mesora. They definitely treat it differently and out of mainstream frum thought, but don't create enmity just because you disagree. Disagree with their stances and their statements, not with the entirety of the place with a broad brushstroke.

Just my two cents.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2012, 12:57:37 PM »
While I may not agree with much of the YCT stances on halacha, etc. I would not go so far as to say they don't pay attention to it. Their approach is definitely not mainstream, whether it is to halacha or mesora, but to say outright they don't pay attention to either I think is oversimplifying their stance (and yes I know plenty about both Avi Weiss and YCT).

I have many issues with YCT and the stances they propound, but I don't think it's fair to paint everyone there the same. I don't even think every person that comes out of YCT believes/subscribes to what Avi Weiss or some other like minded Rabbis believe in.

I would be cautious making huge statements that they don't pay much attention to halacha or mesora. They definitely treat it differently and out of mainstream frum thought, but don't create enmity just because you disagree. Disagree with their stances and their statements, not with the entirety of the place with a broad brushstroke.

Just my two cents.

I know people who have smicha from YCT, and while I can think of one in particular who definitely had some odd ideas, they don't agree with everything that comes out of there either. But the author of the op-ed is Dov Linzer, the rosh yeshiva of YCT. It's fair to say that he too espouses most of the controversial opinions attributed to the Yeshiva and to Avi Weiss.

Either way, as I said, I was responding to the second comment in the thread, which took issue with Linzer's handling of the concept of tznius in Judaism. I was merely saying that it should not be surprising that he takes a less than mainstream (to put it nicely) approach to tznius, based on the reputation of the yeshiva that he heads. Fairly or not, the yeshiva is associated with the views of its hanhala, which includes Dov Linzer and Avi Weiss.

Offline elikay

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2012, 01:05:49 PM »
talk about sinat chinam, what makes you say that?
I sense a lot of hate in the article.

Offline ReadsTheT&C

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2012, 01:28:47 PM »
I was definitely a bit wary that he quotes 'the Talmud' in such a general way, but then I was able to find his sources here: http://rabbidovlinzer.blogspot.com/2012/01/torah-from-our-beit-midrash-tzniut.html
Regardless of how I feel about YCT, I think we should definitely try to separate the message from the messenger here as the problem in Beit Shemesh has reached a fever pitch and I fear will only continue to worsen as the birth rate gap widens between chareidim and chilonim.
In response to:
I sense a lot of hate in the article.
it doesn't sound like the author of the article hates the people per se but rather what they're doing.  I know that sounds like a bit of an adulteration of a cheftza/gavra principle but especially based on YCT's 'open tent' philosophy I can't imagine the author wouldn't sit down and seriously discuss the sources with any of the folks who were protesting the 'pritzut' they thought they were witnessing in Beit Shemesh.

Offline elikay

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Re: NYTimes Op-Ed about Beit Shemesh
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2012, 01:50:07 PM »
I was definitely a bit wary that he quotes 'the Talmud' in such a general way, but then I was able to find his sources here: http://rabbidovlinzer.blogspot.com/2012/01/torah-from-our-beit-midrash-tzniut.html
From even a cursory glance at his sources, I can see that his Hashkafa and mine are universes apart. He very craftly tiptoes around the issues quoting from the Shulchan Aruch as if the shulchan aruch is trying to be maikel while in reality he is being machmir, see Mishna Berura on the Shulchan Aruch which he quotes. And while he goes out of his way to find proof to his thesis, I can find you great proof that Tzitizis has 6 strings (Bais Shamai) or that you can eat kitniyos (beis yosef).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 02:35:46 PM by elikay »