Stolen property found 10 years later - how to deal with it?

[ExGingi]

In 2013, on July 4th weekend, while the family was away for an extended weekend, someone broke into my house, and some property was stolen (security cameras from neighbors show more than one person coming in and out).

At the time, police claimed to have visited pawn shops around, but came up with nothing.

TeamViewer which was installed on a laptop that was stolen ended up helping us to recover that.

One Rebbe dollar showed up somewhere in Manhattan, was given to a local Shliach who brought it to us. But other than that nothing else.

Recently I got news that a couple of bochurim on mivtzoim visit someone who purchased (at least some of) the stolen items.

I obviously want my stolen property back. I would rather not pay for it. The person who purchased it seems to be aware that it is stolen property, but he's a Yid.

Before confronting the person who has the property, I am asking people (with experience, knowledge, or good advice) on how to best approach this.

[elimmm]

Recently I got news that a couple of bochurim on mivtzoim visit someone who purchased (at least some of) the stolen items.

I obviously want my stolen property back. I would rather not pay for it. The person who purchased it seems to be aware that it is stolen property, but he's a Yid.

Before confronting the person who has the property, I am asking people (with experience, knowledge, or good advice) on how to best approach this.

judaica? something with sentimental value? would you offer something to them more than their purchase price?

[ExGingi]

judaica? something with sentimental value? would you offer something to them more than their purchase price?

Sentimental + Judaica. Legally he should forfeit everything. Practically, I would probably be willing to reimburse the purchase price. There is one item (that actually has clear סימנים, including something attached with my name) that is extremely sentimental and somewhat rare, while others have sentimental value (as well as physical value).

[Ver hut gazugt]

In 2013, on July 4th weekend, while the family was away for an extended weekend, someone broke into my house, and some property was stolen (security cameras from neighbors show more than one person coming in and out).

At the time, police claimed to have visited pawn shops around, but came up with nothing.

TeamViewer which was installed on a laptop that was stolen ended up helping us to recover that.

One Rebbe dollar showed up somewhere in Manhattan, was given to a local Shliach who brought it to us. But other than that nothing else.

Recently I got news that a couple of bochurim on mivtzoim visit someone who purchased (at least some of) the stolen items.

I obviously want my stolen property back. I would rather not pay for it. The person who purchased it seems to be aware that it is stolen property, but he's a Yid.

Before confronting the person who has the property, I am asking people (with experience, knowledge, or good advice) on how to best approach this.

afaik, hay tavas those who bought seforim where reimbursed what they paid.

[ExGingi]

afaik, hay tavas those who bought seforim where reimbursed what they paid.

correct

[YitzyS]

I feel like this should be a shaalah for a posek.

[imayid2]

Sentimental + Judaica. Legally he should forfeit everything. Practically, I would probably be willing to reimburse the purchase price. There is one item (that actually has clear סימנים, including something attached with my name) that is extremely sentimental and somewhat rare, while others have sentimental value (as well as physical value).

Were you מייאש?
There would be an issue of יאוש and שינוי רשות.

[TimT]

I feel like this should be a shaalah for a posek.

Precisely why he’s posting it here. We’ve got some of the greatest Poskim, brilliant DR’s, & moral geniuses here on DDF.

[TimT]

Recently I got news that a couple of bochurim on mivtzoim visit someone who purchased (at least some of) the stolen items.

Did the bochurim mention to him that they know who the owner is ? He might be looking high and low for you.
Or do you think he has no interest in returning them.

[ExGingi]

Did the bochurim mention to him that they know who the owner is ? He might be looking high and low for you.
Or do you think he has no interest in returning them.

From what I understood (phone conversation with one of the bochurim) he indicated that he believes the owner has given up on this.

[tov hashem]

I feel like this should be a shaalah for a posek.

שולחן ערוך חושן משפט הלכות גניבה סימן שנו סעיף ב
הגונב ומכר ולא נתייאשו הבעלים (וע"ל סימן שס"ח), ואח"כ הוכר הגנב ובאו עדים שזה החפץ שמכר פלוני הוא גנבו בפנינו, חוזר החפץ לבעלים והבעלים נותנים ללוקח דמים שנתן לגנב, מפני תקנת השוק, והבעלים חוזרים ועושים דין עם הגנב. ואם גנב מפורסם הוא, לא עשו בו תקנת השוק, (טור ס"ד בשם רי"ף ורמב"ם) ואין הבעלים נותנים ללוקח כלום, אלא חוזר הלוקח ועושה דין עם הגנב ומוציא ממנו דמים שנתן לו.

[yungermanchik]

(Famous?) Story with HaRav Chaim Kanievsky Ztz"L:

Someone bought a volume of Kehilos Yaakov from a used seforim place, and he found that it had annotations from the Stiepler himself. It was his own personal copy. He wasn't sure what to do so the next time he was in Bnei Brak, he brought it to Rav Chaim's house and placed it on the table. Rav Chaim briefly perused the sefer then stood up and placed it on his shelf. He then asked the man how much he paid for it and paid him that amount. Rav Chaim explained that it was stolen (during shiva?) and therefore it belongs to him and he's only required to pay the purchase price

מפני תקנת השוק

[imayid2]

Fascinating case with similarities. Some information might be useful.






Note: Murray is a Consevative Rabbi. He is not expected to make that much sense Halachikly.
David (Orthodox FWIU) is a former Justice of NY State Supreme Court.

[ExGingi]

I made contact with a shliach who apparently knows the owner of the pawn shop. He will try to get this to the most amicable resolution on my behalf.

[AsherO]

I made contact with a shliach who apparently knows the owner of the pawn shop. He will try to get this to the most amicable resolution on my behalf.

They keep records that far back? Impressive.

Wishing you a smooth and amicable outcome, please post back.

[ExGingi]

They keep records that far back? Impressive.

Wishing you a smooth and amicable outcome, please post back.

Waiting to hear the complete story. According to the shliach the current pawn shop only opened up after covid. So we don't know if he acquired it years ago at his old shop and brought it over, or if this was sold to him more recently. Anxiously awaiting to get back my items (and get more of the story if possible).

[YitzyS]

They keep records that far back? Impressive.

Wishing you a smooth and amicable outcome, please post back.

At DDF, we have a virology team, a genealogy team (headed by biobook), a government benefits team (headed by CGR), a search team (headed by TimT), an Ornithology team (headed by Something Fishy), and many other teams.

Maybe it's time for a repossession team? I'm sure there's some brawn mixed in with all the brains...

[ExGingi]

At DDF, we have a virology team, a genealogy team (headed by biobook), a government benefits team (headed by CGR), a search team (headed by TimT), an Ornithology team (headed by Something Fishy), and many other teams.

Maybe it's time for a repossession team? I'm sure there's some brawn mixed in with all the brains...

@biobook does genealogy? I wasn't aware. Does she specialize in any specific ethnicity or country of origin?

[YitzyS]

@biobook does genealogy? I wasn't aware. Does she specialize in any specific ethnicity or country of origin?

Biobook does everything. Maybe not Parave cholent though.

[imayid2]

@biobook does genealogy? I wasn't aware. Does she specialize in any specific ethnicity or country of origin?

I'm not a genealogist

I enjoy the intellectual puzzle, trying to figure things out, piece together evidence from different sources to reach a conclusion, if only a somewhat tentative one.