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[yelped]

Many Chassidim (to be fair others as well) horribly mangle the correct pronunciation of לשון הקודש during תפילה, in particular accenting the wrong syllables in the words.

I’ve heard this was deliberately instituted because of the infatuation of the maskilim with didduk. Anyone know the source for this?

Lol.

The Kamarna has interesting shitas regarding dikdik and the Bnei Yissocher writes about it, too.

I disagree with your assertion, though.

Chabad doesn't. Does everyone else?

It was common by the Sephardim for some time (some teshuvas going both ways), recently, it has been imitated by some Ashkenazim.

[YitzyS]

Many Chassidim (to be fair others as well) horribly mangle the correct pronunciation of לשון הקודש during תפילה, in particular accenting the wrong syllables in the words.

I’ve heard this was deliberately instituted because of the infatuation of the maskilim with didduk. Anyone know the source for this?

When I was younger, I came up with a joke about this:

Why are chassidim so into Gematriyos? Because they rely on it when they daven. It says in the sidder "Baruch", not "Boorich". But at least it's the same gematria!

[yg99]

Why do some bentch their children on Friday Night?
Why Friday Night?

[Alexsei]

Why do some bentch their children on Friday Night?
Why Friday Night?

https://din.org.il/2019/08/22/%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A8-%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%94%D7%92-%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9C-%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%AA/

[Definitions]

Many Chassidim (to be fair others as well) horribly mangle the correct pronunciation of לשון הקודש during תפילה, in particular accenting the wrong syllables in the words.

I’ve heard this was deliberately instituted because of the infatuation of the maskilim with didduk. Anyone know the source for this?

Freudian slip?

I've never heard of this reason before. And I've never heard that it's intentional.

What's an example of wrong syllables?

[Yehudaa]

What's an example of wrong syllables?

I imagine OP was referring to the fact that they pronounce virtually all words מלעיל, when in reality most words in לשון הקודש should be pronounced מלרע.

I would add that this is a mistake that much of the litvish community makes as well (likely due to the fact that English is always מלעיל), but maybe it’s not quite as pronounced. It’s sometimes surprising to hear how people who are otherwise very learned can mispronounce important things like קריאת שמע.

I don’t know if it’s an issue in Halacha, as I think I once heard that these things are not problematic if society pronounces them that way (anyone know a מקור for that?), but I find it surprising nonetheless.

[yelped]

I imagine OP was referring to the fact that they pronounce virtually all words מלעיל, when in reality most words in לשון הקודש should be pronounced מלרע.

I would add that this is a mistake that much of the litvish community makes as well (likely due to the fact that English is always מלעיל), but maybe it’s not quite as pronounced. It’s sometimes surprising to hear how people who are otherwise very learned can mispronounce important things like קריאת שמע.

I don’t know if it’s an issue in Halacha, as I think I once heard that these things are not problematic if society pronounces them that way (anyone know a מקור for that?), but I find it surprising nonetheless.

The last line of yours is a mefurash Halacha, but that is even with something as drastic as changes to letter sounds and enunciations.

The other difference you mentioned is something that most people in Hungary, Poland, Galicia (not specifically Chassidim), were not makpid on at all (if you find otherwise, please let me know).

[imayid2]

The last line of yours is a mefurash Halacha, but that is even with something as drastic as changes to letter sounds and enunciations.

I don’t think it’s “mefurash” in regards to changes in meaning by מלעיל ומלרע, (for example the word ואהבת), although IIRC Rav Shloma Zalman Auerbach says it isn’t מעכב בדיעבד.

[imayid2]

Found some interesting discussion on it here:
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/18529/chassidic-rebbes-dont-use-hebrew-grammar/18557#18557

[yelped]

I don’t think it’s “mefurash” in regards to changes in meaning by מלעיל ומלרע, (for example the word ואהבת), although IIRC Rav Shloma Zalman Auerbach says it isn’t מעכב בדיעבד.

I said it's mefurash by changing letter sounds entirely.

How would it would change the meaning of ואהבת?

[pointer]

I said it's mefurash by changing letter sounds entirely.

How would it would change the meaning of ואהבת?

     
Is אָהַבְתָּ present or future tense?

וְאָהַבְתָּ אֵת ה = You should love hashem

קַח נָא אֶת בִּנְךָ אֶת יְחִידְךָ אֲשֶׁר אָהַבְתָּ = Take your child that you love.

if you look closely, one is מלעיל while the other is מלרע.

[aygart]

There are better examples of differences in meaning between מלעיל ומלרע such as בנו in us בנו They built לנו to us לנו They slept. Now listen to people when they bentch.

[yelped]

There are better examples of differences in meaning between מלעיל ומלרע such as בנו in us בנו They built לנו to us לנו They slept. Now listen to people when they bentch.

That's one that Rashi points out.

     
Is אָהַבְתָּ present or future tense?

וְאָהַבְתָּ אֵת ה = You should love hashem

קַח נָא אֶת בִּנְךָ אֶת יְחִידְךָ אֲשֶׁר אָהַבְתָּ = Take your child that you love.

if you look closely, one is מלעיל while the other is מלרע.

Thanks.

I understand that al pi dikdik, that would help you define the proper meaning of the word, but I don't see why it would be anywhere close to being meakev. All it does, is not help identify the meaning of the word since no one says it correctly and uses the phrasing interchangeably.

[pointer]

I understand that al pi dikdik, that would help you define the proper meaning of the word, but I don't see why it would be anywhere close to being meakev. All it does, is not help identify the meaning of the word since no one says it correctly and uses the phrasing interchangeably.

like באה and באה by רחל. You’re changing the tense, I can see why it should be meakev.
Is changing the tense not the same as changing it’s meaning? Are you saying that proper tense is not meakev at all? How about if someone says אמר instead of ויאמר?

[yelped]

like באה and באה by רחל. You’re changing the tense, I can see why it should be meakev.
Is changing the tense not the same as changing it’s meaning? Are you saying that proper tense is not meakev at all? How about if someone says אמר instead of ויאמר?

I'm saying that מלעיל and מלרע are like troppen. They give a taam and meaning to the word if you know what they're about. If you don't, they don't change anything.

[pointer]

I'm saying that מלעיל and מלרע are like troppen. They give a taam and meaning to the word if you know what they're about. If you don't, they don't change anything.

How can you say they don't change anything, if that is literally how to change the tense?

[EliJelly]

How can you say they don't change anything, if that is literally how to change the tense?

What he's saying it that it is not meakev, unlike changing of nekudos which can be meakev.

[pointer]

What he's saying it that it is not meakev, unlike changing of nekudos which can be meakev.

Are you saying changing a tense is not meakev? that's very surprising to me.
Or are you saying changing a tense through a trop is not meakev? This distinction dose not make sense to me.

[imayid2]

Top left paragraph
 https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20026&st=&pgnum=45

[EliJelly]

Are you saying changing a tense is not meakev? that's very surprising to me.

Correct.

Top left paragraph
 https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20026&st=&pgnum=45

Right bottom paragraph
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48328&st=&pgnum=52

and his concluding summary
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48328&st=&pgnum=53