United Crew Shames Woman Who Won’t Move Seats Due To Demand From Men

[rbs-g1.5]

And I am asking you to have an honest  conversation based on the following self understood but improvable truths. 1- Elephants are not people. 2- The world is populated by people of 2 genders.3- There is a natural attraction between members of the opposite genders. This blessing can be harmful when appropriate distance is not maintained. (We may disagree about when and how much distance is appropriate )

[Yehuda57]

And I am asking you to have an honest  conversation based on the following self understood but improvable truths. 1- Elephants are not people. 2- The world is populated by people of 2 genders.3- There is a natural attraction between members of the opposite genders. This blessing can be harmful when appropriate distance is not maintained. (We may disagree about when and how much distance is appropriate )

The reasoning behind the seat switch is not a logical one. It you try apply logical reasoning to it it will fall flat.

[rbs-g1.5]

The reasoning behind the seat switch is not a logical one. It you try apply logical reasoning to it it will fall flat.

And I am asking you to have an honest  conversation based on the following self understood but improvable truths.

[biobook]

And I am asking you to have an honest  conversation based on the following self understood but improvable truths.

Okay, I'm willing to have that conversation, but first I want to finish this earlier conversation.

If someone were to tell you that they don't want to sit near you because you're Jewish so you should switch seats, how would you respond?  Would you smile, and say either Yes or No?  Why or why not?

[yuneeq]

Okay, I'm willing to have that conversation, but first I want to finish this earlier conversation.

If someone were to tell you that they don't want to sit near you because you're Jewish so you should switch seats, how would you respond?  Would you smile, and say either Yes or No?  Why or why not?

If you want to give a more analogous example - “I’m naturally attracted to Jews, and sometimes I can’t help myself, so I set up boundaries to keep my distance. Would you mind switching seats with X”?

[biobook]

If you want to give a more analogous example - “I’m naturally attracted to Jews, and sometimes I can’t help myself, so I set up boundaries to keep my distance. Would you mind switching seats with X”?

I don't want a more analogous example. I want a simpler one, like this:

If someone were to tell you that they don't want to sit near you because you're Jewish so you should switch seats, how would you respond?  Would you smile, and say either Yes or No?  Why or why not?

[EliJelly]

I don't want a more analogous example. I want a simpler one, like this:

If someone were to tell you that they don't want to sit near you because you're Jewish so you should switch seats, how would you respond?  Would you smile, and say either Yes or No?  Why or why not?

The hypothetical example of not sitting next to someone of a different religion is such a faulty analogy because inherently it's because of an animosity towards another religion, contamination from the non pure person, or a feeling of superiority towards that person. Not sitting next to women has nothing of the above, heck, he wouldn't even sit next to his own wife בימי נדתה! As wouldn't she sit next to her husband.

(I know that there it's pure halacha and here it's a self applied stringency but still based on the same concept)

[biobook]

So then you smile and say "I'm sorry, I chose this seat and I'm going to stay here" and move on. I'm really not getting the part where it becomes "how dare he have the nerve to think of asking me".

We're discussing a situation where a man states his request, and you say that the woman (who doesn't share his hashkafa) should just smile and either comply or not,and move on.  You're surprised that the request itself would be perceived as rude by the woman.

Asking a question of a person (unlike asking Google) often provokes an emotional response. How do you think the woman might feel during this interaction?  I would suggest that it would be similar to the way a man might feel if he's asked to switch seats because he is Jewish.

The hypothetical example of not sitting next to someone of a different religion is such a faulty analogy because inherently it's because of an animosity towards another religion, contamination from the non pure person, or a feeling of superiority towards that person.

You help me make my point.  Although I made it clear that
 

The Christian in my analogy has nothing against Jews. 

your gut response is that it must really be because he hates Jews, fears contamination, or feels superior.  You're making these assumptions, based on experiences you've had or things you've learned in the past, not because of how he explained it to you.  Just like the woman on the plane reacts to the request based on her prior experiences.

Both cases are similar in that someone is being asked to move because of the category of humans they fall into.  It's considered rude to be told that someone wants to distance themselves from "your kind of people", whether it's women or Jews or any other group.

You've clearly described what's going through the mind of the man in this dialogue:

A pious male uncomfortable sitting next to a woman is ... just following what he believes to be a religious code of conduct not to come in very close proximity of an unrelated person of the opposite gender (see? I omitted "women" here) for a prolonged period of time.

But you don't seem to have given any thought to what might be going through the mind of the woman.  There are two people in any dialogue.

[S209]

Yes, I understand that it's a complete switcheroo, I was giving the condensed version.

Some of the examples of men who would consider requesting such a switch (politely) because they don't want a woman to sit near them (as opposed to because they do want their wife or friend to sit there):

In both of those cases I’m nearly 100% certain they don’t mean that they would request the woman switch seats with a random person to accommodate you but would request a seat change *for themselves or their relatives* with the person they’re requesting it of. You are presenting the case incorrectly, and perhaps that’s where some of your perception is coming from.

It’s not the condensed version. It’s a totally different scenario in which nobody is humiliating anyone.

@rbs-g1.5 @David R Am I correct? Would you or in the example you gave request a seat change *for yourself or your relative*, or would you or were they request *your seatmate move herself* to a random seat to switch with a random male to accommodate you?

[S209]

I don't think "They hate us" is a sufficient explanation.

Why not? If they’re upset about other factors such as army service, they’re highly likely to hate us for other things as well, real or imagined.

Why do you think you believe it’s an insufficient explanation?

[EliJelly]

We're not talking about requesting that from a Chinese or even an American woman. As I said earlier, it's a bad idea to ask them to switch seats, much rather to ask that from a co-religionist who would be more forthcoming. However, the average educated Israeli woman knows what the real issue is behind such a request, and sure so the Israeli media, yet for whatever reason they rather want to portray it as if the charedim treat women like the Taliban.

[biobook]

Why not? If they’re upset about other factors such as army service, they’re highly likely to hate us for other things as well, real or imagined.

Why do you think you believe it’s an insufficient explanation?

I don't remember the context, but I meant that in general if you throw out "They hate us" to explain every disagreement then you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to get more insight into the factors that influence people's behavior in a specific situation.

Reminds me of the time a professor gave me a poor grade and my mother's knee-jerk reaction was "Antisemite!" Yes, it's true that antisemitism explains some people's behavior, but a bit more reflection might uncover another possible explanation for the grade.

[imayid2]

We're discussing a situation where a man states his request, and you say that the woman (who doesn't share his hashkafa) should just smile and either comply or not,and move on.  You're surprised that the request itself would be perceived as rude by the woman.

Asking a question of a person (unlike asking Google) often provokes an emotional response. How do you think the woman might feel during this interaction?  I would suggest that it would be similar to the way a man might feel if he's asked to switch seats because he is Jewish.

You help me make my point.  Although I made it clear that
  your gut response is that it must really be because he hates Jews, fears contamination, or feels superior.  You're making these assumptions, based on experiences you've had or things you've learned in the past, not because of how he explained it to you.  Just like the woman on the plane reacts to the request based on her prior experiences.

Both cases are similar in that someone is being asked to move because of the category of humans they fall into.  It's considered rude to be told that someone wants to distance themselves from "your kind of people", whether it's women or Jews or any other group.

You've clearly described what's going through the mind of the man in this dialogue:
But you don't seem to have given any thought to what might be going through the mind of the woman.  There are two people in any dialogue.

No he did not help you make your point.

Saying he has nothing against Jews doesn’t help an iota because it’s obvious that the inherent reason for his request has to do with a negativity towards Jews. Your case is non analogous for that reason as others have pointed out.

A Jewish woman who understands the reason behind the request, even if she may not agree with it, should not be viewing it the same way as the when asked to move because of religion.

[biobook]

No he did not help you make your point.

Saying he has nothing against Jews doesn’t help an iota because it’s obvious that the inherent reason for his request has to do with a negativity towards Jews.

I'm the one who wrote the narrative!  Why do you think you know better than me what the reason is?

[imayid2]

I'm the one who wrote the narrative!  Why do you think you know better than me what the reason is?

You wrote that the reason is:

He just has his personal code of conduct not to come in very close proximity to a person of the opposite religion.

but that’s incomplete. What the reason he doesn’t want to come in close proximity?

[biobook]

A Jewish woman who understands the reason behind the request, even if she may not agree with it, should not be viewing it the same way as the when asked to move because of religion.

The issue is not how you think she should or should not perceive it, but rather how she does. 

You wrote that the reason is:but that’s incomplete. What the reason he doesn’t want to come in close proximity?

He has a religious code of conduct not to come in very close proximity of a Jew.

[imayid2]

The issue is not how you think she should or should not perceive it, but rather how she does.

The issue of how she does may just be her own issue and no one else’s. If it is unwarranted, which I’m claiming it is.

He has a religious code of conduct not to come in very close proximity of a Jew.

What is the reason for this conduct?

[biobook]

The issue of how she does may just be her own issue and no one else’s. If it is unwarranted, which I’m claiming it is.

You get to approve if other people's perception is warranted? Who made you the boss of everyone? 

What is the reason for this conduct?

It was a very brief interaction, and that's all he said.  Is that how you would respond?  You would ask him to clarify the reason why he doesn't want you, as a Jew, to sit near him?

[S209]

I don't remember the context, but I meant that in general if you throw out "They hate us" to explain every disagreement then you're depriving yourself of the opportunity to get more insight into the factors that influence people's behavior in a specific situation.

Reminds me of the time a professor gave me a poor grade and my mother's knee-jerk reaction was "Antisemite!" Yes, it's true that antisemitism explains some people's behavior, but a bit more reflection might uncover another possible explanation for the grade.

Sometimes. And sometimes, it’s true.

[imayid2]

It was a very brief interaction, and that's all he said.  Is that how you would respond?  You would ask him to clarify the reason why he doesn't want you, as a Jew, to sit near him?

No, I wouldn’t ask, I would assume that that conduct is rooted in negativity of Jews. Which is the only explanation for such conduct.

This has nothing to do with

A Jewish woman who understands the reason behind the request, even if she may not agree with it

You get to approve if other people's perception is warranted? Who made you the boss of everyone?

I’m entitled to have an opinion about whether her perspective is warranted, and I’m explaining why I think it isn’t.