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« Last edited by ExGingi on November 27, 2023, 05:15:11 PM »

Author Topic: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread  (Read 1131967 times)

Online Just A Jew

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10380 on: May 06, 2024, 08:56:06 PM »
Indeed genius on the part of Hamas. But the newspapers are still complicit for swallowing it hook line and sinker.

Let me offer an alternative: "Israel launches strike on Rafah hours after rocket attack from Rafah kills 5 Israelis"

"Complicit" makes it sound like they are an unbiased, innocent third party, with no agenda. I think we're past that.
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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10381 on: May 06, 2024, 09:06:44 PM »
Taking personal feelings out of it, it's genius. If Hamas were a sports GM, they'd get the better of even Howie Roseman in a draft day trade. They have truly studied the game and know how to play it to perfection. If we can take just a few of the Nobel Prize winners and great inventors and have them focus on PR and politics, maybe Israel will win a round one day.
They're willing accomplices, that’s all.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10382 on: May 06, 2024, 09:08:02 PM »
They're willing accomplices, that’s all.

No, they have their own agenda. Once you know what they look for and what they want out of it, you can either learn to use them to your advantage or not.
Freedom of the press is alive at the US Mint.
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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10383 on: May 06, 2024, 09:18:40 PM »
No, they have their own agenda. Once you know what they look for and what they want out of it, you can either learn to use them to your advantage or not.
If you think npr, bbc, & the rest of them will ever switch sides I’ve got a few bridges for sale.
They hate Israel, they always have, & they always will.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10384 on: May 06, 2024, 09:30:19 PM »
Taking personal feelings out of it, it's genius. If Hamas were a sports GM, they'd get the better of even Howie Roseman in a draft day trade. They have truly studied the game and know how to play it to perfection. If we can take just a few of the Nobel Prize winners and great inventors and have them focus on PR and politics, maybe Israel will win a round one day.
nothing genius about this. They know npr needs a straw.

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Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10387 on: May 07, 2024, 05:21:57 AM »
Lots to unpack in here. An altogether nasty business regardless of how it turns out afterwards.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/389541
Quote
Israeli officials: US knew about changes to ceasefire deal - but didn't brief Israel
'The feeling is that Israel got played' by the US and mediators during the latest round of negotiations, Israeli officials tell journalist Barak Ravid.
Israel National News
  May 7, 2024, 11:53 AM (GMT+3)
Arie Leib Abrams/Flash90

Israeli officials have claimed that the Biden administration knew about the changes made to the ceasefire-prisoner swap deal offered by Egypt and Qatar to Hamas, but failed to inform Israel of the changes before Hamas announced that it had "accepted" a ceasefire, journalist Barak Ravid wrote on Axios.

Ravid quoted a senior US official as denying the reports, claiming, "American diplomats have been engaged with Israeli counterparts. There have been no surprises." He also described the process as "extremely difficult."

According to the official, the US believes that Israel has been negotiating in good faith, and that the April offer was "the most forward leaning proposal to date. To secure a ceasefire, Hamas simply needs to release hostages. It's all mapped out."

The Biden administration also sees Hamas' "agreement" to the ceasefire as a counteroffer, not a new proposal, he added.

According to Ravid, "The episode has created deep disappointment and suspicion among senior Israeli officials regarding the US role in the hostage deal talks and could negatively influence the negotiations going forward."

A report corroborated by the New York Times said that CIA director William Burns was a party to the offer proposed by Egypt and Qatar, but not approved by Israel. It was this offer which Hamas eventually accepted.

Axios reported that, "The CIA declined to comment."

Meanwhile, three Israeli officials have confirmed that Hamas' announcement surprised the Israeli government, and that Israel did not receive the text of the response from the mediators until an hour after Hamas issued its official statement.

The officials also told Ravid: "When the Israelis read Hamas' response, they were surprised to see it contained 'many new elements' that were not part of the previous proposal that Israel agreed on and that was presented to Hamas by the US, Egypt and Qatar ten days ago." One of the officials added that "it looked like a whole new proposal."

Two senior Israeli officials confirmed that Egypt gave the Hamas delegation "a new proposal without coordinating with Israel," when the delegation was in Cairo over the weekend.

The US invited Israel to the Cairo talks, but Israel declined to send a delegation - a decision which both Israeli and US officials confirmed as justified due to the fact that Israel had already said its part, and was waiting to hear Hamas' response to the existing proposal. At the same time, one Israeli official said that the decision not to send a delegation cost Israel visibility into the talks.


Two Israeli officials told Ravid that "the feeling is that 'Israel got played' by the US and the mediators who drafted 'a new deal' and weren't transparent about it."

The officials also said that Israel suspects that the Biden administration offered Hamas guarantees that Israel would end the war as part of the hostage deal.

The Israeli officials said that the last changes to Hamas' counteroffer were made Monday morning, and the Biden administration knew about the changes. They also said that the Biden administration believes Hamas' response to be negotiable, though "Israeli leaders have their doubts."

"We think the Americans conveyed the message to Hamas that it will be okay when it comes to ending the war," one senior Israeli official said.

The US official confirmed that the Biden administration aims to create something "more enduring" from the ceasefire-prisoner swap deal, but claimed that the US did not provide Hamas with any guarantees about ending the war.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10388 on: May 07, 2024, 06:16:06 AM »

Rafah crossing.

Offline gutlib

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10389 on: May 07, 2024, 07:47:38 AM »
Hamas's demand: Ending the war without committing to the release of live captives. here is the full details

After Hamas's initial public declaration in which the terrorist organization "agreed" to a ceasefire agreement with Israel, this morning (Tuesday) saw the unveiling of the complete document submitted by the terrorist organization to the mediating countries and to Israel in the negotiations regarding the captives. Suleiman Maswada exposed the document on "Channel 12 News," and they translated it from Arabic to Hebrew.

The goal of the agreement is the release of all Israeli captives in the Gaza Strip, including civilians, soldiers, and officers—both living and deceased. Additionally, this includes captives who have been in Gaza since October 7th—Hadar Goldin, Oron Shaul, Isham Asaid, and Avraham Mengistu. In exchange, Palestinian militants will be released from Israeli prisons, IDF forces will withdraw from the Gaza Strip, and a continuous ceasefire will be implemented, which will include Gaza's rehabilitation—essentially ending the conflict without undermining the Hamas terrorist organization.

The first stage of the deal:
Hamas demands that the first stage lasts for 42 days, during which there will be a temporary cessation of IDF military operations and Hamas terrorist activities, the withdrawal of Israeli forces eastward and away from civilian areas in Gaza to areas near the border—including the Netzarim junction and Al-Kawya square—alongside a 10-hour cessation of Israeli intelligence gathering activities and 12-hour Israeli air activity on days when captives are released.

Furthermore, Hamas already demands at this stage the return of Palestinian residents in Gaza to their homes. The withdrawal of IDF forces from the Netzarim junction will occur on the third day of the agreement, following the release of three captives. IDF will completely vacate Highway 4 from east to west until Salah al-Din axis, and all IDF points established in the area will be dismantled. Simultaneously, the return of Palestinian residents to the northern Gaza Strip, without returning weapons, will be facilitated, allowing free movement of residents at any point and the entry of humanitarian aid without hindrance.

On the 22nd day of the agreement, after releasing half of the living Israeli captives, including female soldiers, IDF forces will exit from the center of the Gaza Strip to areas close to the perimeter. As part of humanitarian assistance, around 600 trucks will enter Gaza daily, including 50 fuel trucks, with 300 of them going northward.

Key points of the first stage of release:
In the first stage, Hamas will release 33 of the Israeli captives "alive or deceased," women—civilians and soldiers, children under 19 who are not soldiers, adults over 50, and the sick. In return, Israel will release Palestinian militants from prisons, as detailed below:

• Hamas will release civilian women and children under 19 who are not soldiers. In return, Israel will release 30 militants—women and children—according to lists submitted by the terrorist organization.

• Hamas will release all captives over 50, the sick, and the injured. In return, Israel will release 30 older militants from prison over 50, according to Hamas's submitted lists.

• Hamas will release all Israeli female soldiers still alive, and in return, Israel will release 50 militants for each female soldier, including 30 militants serving life sentences and 20 serving severe non-life sentences, according to Hamas's lists.

• Hamas will release three captives on the third day of the ceasefire. Then, Hamas will release three captives each week, starting with women, including civilians and female soldiers. In the sixth week, Hamas will release the remaining captives included in this stage. In return, Israel will release the agreed-upon number of militants according to Hamas's lists. On the seventh day, the terrorist organization will provide information about the remaining captives expected to be released.

On the 22nd day of the agreement, Israel will release re-arrested control militants. In the fifth week of the agreement, if the number of Israeli captives still alive does not reach 33, Hamas will release bodies in the same category instead. In return, Israel will release all women and children under 19 arrested in Gaza after October 7th.

Hamas emphasized that the release of the captives is contingent upon progress in the remaining clauses, including the cessation of military operations, the withdrawal of IDF forces from the Gaza Strip, the return of Palestinian residents to their homes, and the introduction of humanitarian aid to Gaza.

And that's not all. Hamas has more demands:

Israel must complete legal procedures preventing it from re-arresting militants released based on past offenses.
The first-stage release keys serve as the basis for negotiations in the second stage.
Improvement in the conditions of Palestinian militants in prisons and the removal of all punishments and harsh conditions after October 7th.
Starting from today, direct negotiations between both sides regarding the details of the second stage will commence, aiming for agreements before the end of the fifth week.
Commencement of Gaza's infrastructure rehabilitation and provision of firefighting supplies.
At the start of the first day, over 50 military activists will leave for treatment abroad via Rafah Crossing. Additionally, the number of Gazans who can exit through Rafah will increase, and trade will resume without restrictions.
The second stage of the deal:
As part of this stage, which will also last 42 days, an announcement of continuous calm will be made, beginning before the release of the remaining captives and Palestinian militants. During this stage

, Israeli men who were kidnapped and are still alive, whether soldiers or civilians, are expected to be released in exchange for militants in prison, the removal of military detention points, and the complete withdrawal of IDF forces from all of Gaza.

The third stage of the deal:
This stage will include the exchange of bodies between the two sides after identification. Moreover, the implementation of the plan for Gaza's rehabilitation, lasting between 3-5 years, with the assistance of international countries and organizations, including Egypt, Qatar, and the UN. Additionally, "the siege on Gaza will be completely lifted" no later than the 16th day of the ceasefire.

Offline gutlib

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10391 on: May 07, 2024, 09:08:43 AM »
if this was so simple and quick, why didn't they do this on the first day they came into Gaza, half a year ago? before rafah became packed?

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10392 on: May 07, 2024, 09:43:26 AM »


How many goons does NK have? Is it always the same couple guys or are there a significant amount of them?

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10393 on: May 07, 2024, 10:18:54 AM »
A handful in Monsey and a handful in London. They're just overworking to be visible.

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10394 on: May 07, 2024, 10:28:20 AM »
So sad.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10395 on: May 07, 2024, 11:14:20 AM »
if this was so simple and quick, why didn't they do this on the first day they came into Gaza, half a year ago? before rafah became packed?

Valid question. There’s been a lot of asking why at the peak of the war with so many ground forces in Gaza, they didn’t spread out more and target all of Gaza.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10396 on: May 07, 2024, 11:23:34 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/world/middleeast/burns-cease-fire-hamas.html

Officials Describe Pact Hamas Has Embraced as U.S.-Israel Proposal With Small Changes

The C.I.A. director, William J. Burns, was consulted on the changes, the officials say. The proposal uses the term “sustainable calm,” wording that Israel had earlier agreed earlier to, but whose definition may be a point of friction.

https://twitter.com/JudahAriGross/status/1787772318929789258

So the US negotiated away live hostages to dead hostages without even letting Israel know?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10397 on: May 07, 2024, 11:24:27 AM »
if this was so simple and quick, why didn't they do this on the first day they came into Gaza, half a year ago? before rafah became packed?
It isn’t simple! Intense international pressure led by the US administration that is arguably the most anti-Israel ever.  As well as internal pressure from the radical left.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10399 on: May 07, 2024, 11:47:22 AM »
that is arguably the most anti-Israel ever.
I wouldn’t go that far.

1 reason I heard that sounds reasonable is if you attack all cities at once then where are you evacuating everyone to ?