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« Last edited by ExGingi on November 27, 2023, 05:15:11 PM »

Author Topic: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread  (Read 1377372 times)

Offline Just A Jew

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14460 on: January 09, 2025, 07:18:20 PM »
Kill all men and enslave the women and children? ;) That's what victors did historically.

Seriously, since you mentioned "common sense" and that usually goes together with a strong connection to reality. The reality is that as an end goal, shrinking Gaza will not accomplish anything for Israel's security. The 2 million and counting radical terror supporting population will continue to multiply like frogs and raise new generations of terrorists. When (!!) Israel wins this war they'll need to figure out how to establish a government which will totally revamp everything from scratch, most importantly focusing on education and uprooting Hamas's terror indoctrination.

Realistically, the only thing that truly ensures Israel's security is complete annexation and dismantling of Gaza, including redistributing the population to other countries. As long as you have an "other" on your border who harbors a victim's mentality and a suicidal ideology, there will always be an extremely high risk.

Also realistically, this will never happen. The world won't let it, and Israel will never have the stones to risk worldwide alienation to even suggest it.

So reality becomes a sliding scale of sorts, where Israel needs to determine how much risk they are willing to absorb, both from a hostile entity in Gaza, and on a hostile world stage. There is no right answer when is comes to risk appetite. As they say, toloi b'hergesh.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14461 on: January 09, 2025, 07:28:59 PM »
Realistically, the only thing that truly ensures Israel's security is complete annexation and dismantling of Gaza, including redistributing the population to other countries. As long as you have an "other" on your border who harbors a victim's mentality and a suicidal ideology, there will always be an extremely high risk.

Also realistically, this will never happen. The world won't let it, and Israel will never have the stones to risk worldwide alienation to even suggest it.

So reality becomes a sliding scale of sorts, where Israel needs to determine how much risk they are willing to absorb, both from a hostile entity in Gaza, and on a hostile world stage. There is no right answer when is comes to risk appetite. As they say, toloi b'hergesh.

Well said, the Gaza quandary has no easy solution, if it has one at all. It's more about mitigating the problem and threats. I was questioning how shrinking Gaza will move the needle in that direction at all. People seemed to be enthralled by that idea.

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14462 on: January 09, 2025, 07:59:29 PM »
Kill all men and enslave the women and children? ;) That's what victors did historically.

Seriously, since you mentioned "common sense" and that usually goes together with a strong connection to reality. The reality is that as an end goal, shrinking Gaza will not accomplish anything for Israel's security. The 2 million and counting radical terror supporting population will continue to multiply like frogs and raise new generations of terrorists. When (!!) Israel wins this war they'll need to figure out how to establish a government which will totally revamp everything from scratch, most importantly focusing on education and uprooting Hamas's terror indoctrination.
Well said, the Gaza quandary has no easy solution, if it has one at all. It's more about mitigating the problem and threats. I was questioning how shrinking Gaza will move the needle in that direction at all. People seemed to be enthralled by that idea.

I won't disagree that "shrinking Gaza" is not a proper end goal.

But I do disagree on "shrinking Gaza will not accomplish anything for Israel's security"

1) Every extra mile of distance is useful when defending against a mostly land-based foe.
2) Ho'ikar, Jewish settlements have proven time and again to be a strong literal bulwark against terror. If they actually use that mile to build Jewish settlements, it will most definitely lower the threat level of the hostile inhabitants. Besides for disincentivizing further attacks, as it raises the costs of one (attack Israel again, you won't have any heroic stories. You'll be destroyed and you might just lose another mile)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14463 on: January 09, 2025, 08:26:38 PM »
I won't disagree that "shrinking Gaza" is not a proper end goal.

But I do disagree on "shrinking Gaza will not accomplish anything for Israel's security"

1) Every extra mile of distance is useful when defending against a mostly land-based foe.
2) Ho'ikar, Jewish settlements have proven time and again to be a strong literal bulwark against terror. If they actually use that mile to build Jewish settlements, it will most definitely lower the threat level of the hostile inhabitants. Besides for disincentivizing further attacks, as it raises the costs of one (attack Israel again, you won't have any heroic stories. You'll be destroyed and you might just lose another mile)

1. Having an extra mile of distance but then building settlements there and losing that distance? I don't see how that makes sense. I also don't see
how an extra mile of buffer zone even without settling in it will do much. There was a secured gated border there before, and Oct. 7 didn't happen because a shortage of buffer space.

2. Honestly I don't know much about settlements, how much they accomplish or the opposite, and how much serves another goal for Israel's radical right which for them is more important than the potential risks it brings along. Just by following some news of terror attacks happening there more than it other places in Israel it seems that settlements are placed in the lion's den and inhabited by people who see significance in that and are ready to risk their lives for it. Not an argument I understand how that helps when discussing security for Israelis. 

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14464 on: January 12, 2025, 09:57:37 AM »
It seems that loss of territory hurts the terrorists more than loss of life

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14465 on: January 12, 2025, 10:03:16 AM »
Chasdei Hashem!
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/402167
Shechem: Two terrorists arrested en route to attack
Imminent attack foiled: Security forces apprehended two terrorists armed with fully loaded M-16 assault rifles and in possession of tactical vests and facemasks.
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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14466 on: January 13, 2025, 01:12:53 PM »
This idea of expelling released terrorists needs some better critical thinking done to it. We all seem to have forgotten that IL tried to expel hamas leaders to Lebanon, and all that got us in the end was expertise transfer from hezbolla to hamas...
Maybe it needs to be some sort of supervised exile in some third party country that takes responsibility for the released terrorists being banned from contact with anyone not pre approved...

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14467 on: January 13, 2025, 01:17:36 PM »
This idea of expelling released terrorists needs some better critical thinking done to it. We all seem to have forgotten that IL tried to expel hamas leaders to Lebanon, and all that got us in the end was expertise transfer from hezbolla to hamas...
Maybe it needs to be some sort of supervised exile in some third party country that takes responsibility for the released terrorists being banned from contact with anyone not pre approved...
Beyond time that Israel introduces capital punishment for terror.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Mr. CC

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14468 on: January 13, 2025, 01:25:17 PM »
Beyond time that Israel introduces capital punishment for terror.
But we all know which cases their 'court' will let, and make them use it... r"l
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 01:38:41 PM by Mr. CC »

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14469 on: January 13, 2025, 01:33:00 PM »
Beyond time that Israel introduces capital punishment for terror.
Exists
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/402209

Offline AsherO

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14470 on: January 13, 2025, 01:55:50 PM »
This idea of expelling released terrorists needs some better critical thinking done to it. We all seem to have forgotten that IL tried to expel hamas leaders to Lebanon, and all that got us in the end was expertise transfer from hezbolla to hamas...
Maybe it needs to be some sort of supervised exile in some third party country that takes responsibility for the released terrorists being banned from contact with anyone not pre approved...

What 3rd party country will take responsibility for convicted terrorists with blood on their hands released into their society?
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14471 on: January 13, 2025, 01:56:56 PM »
Exists
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/402209

Conversation thereof exists, nothing that’s been legislated.
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Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14472 on: January 13, 2025, 03:01:10 PM »
Conversation thereof exists, nothing that’s been legislated.
Shouldn't need legislation, terrorism fits under the already legislated death penalty for crimes against humanity

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14473 on: January 13, 2025, 03:09:11 PM »
And yet, they haven't killed anyone since Eichmann.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Traveler718

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14474 on: January 13, 2025, 03:25:05 PM »
What 3rd party country will take responsibility for convicted terrorists with blood on their hands released into their society?

The US for the next week

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14475 on: January 13, 2025, 03:26:47 PM »
Beyond time that Israel introduces capital punishment for terror.

In general that's correct, but with the hostages situation now though, Hamas would have announced that they too will c"v kill an hostage for every terrorist sentenced and executed by Israel. Laying off the executions till after all hostages are released would make sense but then they would still be material for deals and exchanges so nothing really solved. After all is over Israel should definitely try and execute the terrorists who remain.
 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 03:30:33 PM by EliJelly »

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14476 on: January 13, 2025, 03:31:02 PM »
And yet, they haven't killed anyone since Eichmann.
Lack of will or spine doesn't mean that it doesnt exist technically.
There's obviously other considerations involved too.
When the British were executing members of Etzel and Lechi, the irgun famously took British soldiers hostage... which some times worked, and sometimes didn't https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair

Also executing "resistance" members brings up painful memories for many countries... heck of a way to do hasbara....
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 04:13:47 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline Shmuel K

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14477 on: January 13, 2025, 11:37:18 PM »
Lack of will or spine doesn't mean that it doesnt exist technically.
There's obviously other considerations involved too.
When the British were executing members of Etzel and Lechi, the irgun famously took British soldiers hostage... which some times worked, and sometimes didn't https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair

Also executing "resistance" members brings up painful memories for many countries... heck of a way to do hasbara....
I remember listening to a recording of Rabbi Kahane say that story and he said that was the last time the British killed a Jew if I remember correctly.
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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14478 on: January 14, 2025, 10:09:19 AM »
I remember listening to a recording of Rabbi Kahane say that story and he said that was the last time the British killed a Jew if I remember correctly.
It was.
there were episodes prior to that one where the Brits caved and commuted the sentence

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14479 on: January 14, 2025, 10:52:39 AM »
In general that's correct, but with the hostages situation now though, Hamas would have announced that they too will c"v kill an hostage for every terrorist sentenced and executed by Israel. Laying off the executions till after all hostages are released would make sense but then they would still be material for deals and exchanges so nothing really solved. After all is over Israel should definitely try and execute the terrorists who remain.

The issue doesn’t start here, it’s starts with rules of engagement that leave you with too many injured terrorists. Great for intelligence, but you also end up with prisons full of terrorists.
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