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« Last edited by ExGingi on November 27, 2023, 05:15:11 PM »

Author Topic: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread  (Read 1389391 times)

Offline zalman2bis

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14500 on: January 18, 2025, 09:14:34 PM »
The world will send them generators
Israel can stop it. I don't think any country will go to war with Israel, in order to get aid to Gaza.

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14501 on: January 18, 2025, 09:46:30 PM »
Speaking to some friends lately, and the idea of shutting off electricity to Gaza, or even stopping basic aid, as a sure medium to cause Hamas to capitulate. Cause as soon as the Gazans stop supporting them, and turn against them, that's their end. (This solution also seems to be the Torah approach.)

This seems to be such a simple easy solution.

What's stopping Israel from doing this? The international outcry? It wouldn't work? The initial death toll till it works (which will probably be much less than the total is now)?

Wondering people's thoughts as to why a seemingly simple solution isn't being employed.

Perhaps open your eyes and look at Israel as the country it is and not the country you want it to be. No, they cannot besiege and starve to death a whole population in 2025, they are too dependent on and strive to be part of the west to suddenly do what Assad does. Same goes for following "Torah approaches", they never pretended to follow that, especially with war conduct. Highly time to retire such expectations.

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14502 on: January 18, 2025, 10:04:46 PM »
Perhaps open your eyes and look at Israel as the country it is and not the country you want it to be. No, they cannot besiege and starve to death a whole population in 2025, they are too dependent on and strive to be part of the west to suddenly do what Assad does. Same goes for following "Torah approaches", they never pretended to follow that, especially with war conduct. Highly time to retire such expectations.
So you're saying they won't do it due to the international outcry. Thank you for your response.
Though I'm not sure you understood. They don't have to starve to death the whole population. They just have to make living conditions uncomfortable enough to cause the population to get their rulers to give up. That will happen after very few deaths, IMO. They don't have mesirus nefesh like a yid does. Hamas has no problem with mesiras nefesh of the Gazans, but most Gazans are not looking to die, and not even looking to lose electricity.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2025, 10:08:52 PM by zalman2bis »

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14503 on: January 18, 2025, 10:16:41 PM »
Probably meant for the other thread
I didnt realize there was one. Ill head there.

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14504 on: January 18, 2025, 10:59:42 PM »
So you're saying they won't do it due to the international outcry. Thank you for your response.
Though I'm not sure you understood. They don't have to starve to death the whole population. They just have to make living conditions uncomfortable enough to cause the population to get their rulers to give up. That will happen after very few deaths, IMO. They don't have mesirus nefesh like a yid does. Hamas has no problem with mesiras nefesh of the Gazans, but most Gazans are not looking to die, and not even looking to lose electricity.

I'm sorry, were you under the impression life in Gaza has been comfortable for the last 15 months? They're not giving up Hamas.
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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14505 on: January 18, 2025, 11:13:00 PM »
I'm sorry, were you under the impression life in Gaza has been comfortable for the last 15 months? They're not giving up Hamas.
So you're saying it wouldn't work. The population will be accepting of dire situations. Or even if not, Hamas will force them to put up with it.
Honestly, I actually don't know what the conditions there are, and how the population views it. Do you know? Or just assuming based on normal life in the west.
Do the people have food every day? Do they have to work for it? Do they have electricity? Are they happy?
What would cause them to become very unhappy and unaccepting of their situation?

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14506 on: January 18, 2025, 11:22:18 PM »
@ExGingi do you have any comment on the current deal and ceasefire?

On the surface it sounds terrible.

There are definitely important details and considerations that aren't known. Time will tell, hopefully no longer than 6 weeks.

What might have been right or possible 15 months ago might not be possible or right now.

Israelis are the #1 losers in the PR arena.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14507 on: January 18, 2025, 11:23:10 PM »
So you're saying it wouldn't work. The population will be accepting of dire situations. Or even if not, Hamas will force them to put up with it.
Honestly, I actually don't know what the conditions there are, and how the population views it. Do you know? Or just assuming based on normal life in the west.
Do the people have food every day? Do they have to work for it? Do they have electricity? Are they happy?
What would cause them to become very unhappy and unaccepting of their situation?

I'm really not understanding what you're trying to get at. You seem to be claiming that there is some breaking point where the people of Gaza would turn against Hamas to the point where it would force Hamas to do what? Surrender? Based on what? And to insinuate that life is good for them? They get free food? I'm lost.
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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14508 on: January 18, 2025, 11:48:39 PM »
I'm really not understanding what you're trying to get at. You seem to be claiming that there is some breaking point where the people of Gaza would turn against Hamas to the point where it would force Hamas to do what? Surrender? Based on what? And to insinuate that life is good for them? They get free food? I'm lost.
Not sure why it's so hard to get.
For sure there is a breaking point when a person surrenders.
Yes, I'm insinuating that life for them is not hard enough to make them surrender, and it can be made much harder.
(Isn't that how every war is won? When the enemy decides it's not worth it to fight anymore.)
Is that unfathomable? Please explain.

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14509 on: January 19, 2025, 01:12:22 AM »
Not sure why it's so hard to get.
For sure there is a breaking point when a person surrenders.
Yes, I'm insinuating that life for them is not hard enough to make them surrender, and it can be made much harder.
(Isn't that how every war is won? When the enemy decides it's not worth it to fight anymore.)
Is that unfathomable? Please explain.

The breaking point for the world to force Israel to let go of your "besiege and make life miserable" plan is much closer than the breaking point where Gazans turn around and revolt against Hamas.

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14510 on: January 19, 2025, 01:14:25 AM »
So you're saying they won't do it due to the international outcry. Thank you for your response.
Though I'm not sure you understood. They don't have to starve to death the whole population. They just have to make living conditions uncomfortable enough to cause the population to get their rulers to give up. That will happen after very few deaths, IMO. They don't have mesirus nefesh like a yid does. Hamas has no problem with mesiras nefesh of the Gazans, but most Gazans are not looking to die, and not even looking to lose electricity.

Ah so starve the population until some begin starving to death. Got it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14511 on: January 19, 2025, 07:09:04 AM »
Israel's security forces retrieve Oron Shaul's body hours before Gaza ceasefire

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-838158

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14512 on: January 19, 2025, 11:19:44 AM »
The breaking point for the world to force Israel to let go of your "besiege and make life miserable" plan is much closer than the breaking point where Gazans turn around and revolt against Hamas.
I got your answer the first time.
Israel is too afraid of what the world will say. And is prioritizing that over their own security (lives).

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14513 on: January 19, 2025, 11:21:56 AM »
Ah so starve the population until some begin starving to death. Got it.
Will it work? At what point? Do you think it's wrong? If yes, why?

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14514 on: January 19, 2025, 11:26:19 AM »
Will it work? At what point? Do you think it's wrong? If yes, why?

What is the alternative for the Gazans? You keep saying there is a tipping point, but I haven't seen anyone state the alternative? What is their choice? Forced relocation? PA? What shows them that anything else is better than what they have now (which in reality none of us really know).

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14515 on: January 19, 2025, 11:29:01 AM »
What is the alternative for the Gazans? You keep saying there is a tipping point, but I haven't seen anyone state the alternative? What is their choice? Forced relocation? PA? What shows them that anything else is better than what they have now (which in reality none of us really know).
That Hamas is no longer a party or a faction. Surrenders unconditionally. All hostages are returned. All weapons laid down. At Israel's discretion what to do with Gaza.

Israel should state very clearly what their demands are, and tell the enemy we are going to make your life miserable until you cave to all our demands.

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14516 on: January 19, 2025, 11:33:36 AM »
That Hamas is no longer a party or a faction. Surrenders unconditionally. All hostages are returned. All weapons laid down. At Israel's discretion what to do with Gaza.

Israel should state very clearly what their demands are, and tell the enemy we are going to make your life miserable until you cave to all our demands.

You didn't answer my question. That is what Israel wants, but what happens to Gazans after that happens? Israel's discretion. If you really want someone to choose, you need to give them an alternative. "Israel's discretion" may be worse than their current situation, so why would you expect them to make that decision?

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14517 on: January 19, 2025, 11:40:04 AM »
You didn't answer my question. That is what Israel wants, but what happens to Gazans after that happens? Israel's discretion. If you really want someone to choose, you need to give them an alternative. "Israel's discretion" may be worse than their current situation, so why would you expect them to make that decision?
Israel can tell them a plan that sounds good to any arab who is not looking to hurt Israel.

i.e. They'll be governed by a puppet gvm't that will allow them to be free and prosper etc, but won't be allow any anti Israel stuff.

I'm pretty sure they know, that Arabs who live in Israel, have it ok.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 11:43:07 AM by zalman2bis »

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14518 on: January 19, 2025, 02:27:55 PM »
That Hamas is no longer a party or a faction. Surrenders unconditionally. All hostages are returned. All weapons laid down. At Israel's discretion what to do with Gaza.

Israel should state very clearly what their demands are, and tell the enemy we are going to make your life miserable until you cave to all our demands.

And then you woke up....
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14519 on: January 19, 2025, 02:43:28 PM »
Israel can tell them a plan that sounds good to any arab who is not looking to hurt Israel.

i.e. They'll be governed by a puppet gvm't that will allow them to be free and prosper etc, but won't be allow any anti Israel stuff.

I'm pretty sure they know, that Arabs who live in Israel, have it ok.

Absolutely none of your theories or assertions are grounded in any kind of reality. There is nothing to even hint that there is a breaking point where the Gazans reject Hamas, and the way you completely discount Israel's reliance on the world and what world pressure would look like is completely disconnected from facts on the ground. This entire exercise is the same as saying carpet bomb Gaza.
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