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« Last edited by ExGingi on November 27, 2023, 05:15:11 PM »

Author Topic: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread  (Read 1449365 times)

Offline Shmuel K

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14820 on: February 28, 2025, 12:08:32 AM »
Assuming this is largely accurate,


I have several bridges to sell you for a bargain price at top locations.
I can sell you the same bridges for 50% off whatever he is selling them 4! 0% APR We will match any posted offer!
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Offline Sam 77

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14821 on: February 28, 2025, 12:34:21 AM »

I have several bridges to sell you for a bargain price at top locations.
As per forum rules  please post asking price

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14822 on: February 28, 2025, 12:44:36 AM »
I have several tunnels in stock, if bridges aren't your thing, including some mint condition gaza tunnels.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14823 on: February 28, 2025, 12:50:51 AM »
I have several tunnels in stock, if bridges aren't your thing, including some mint condition gaza tunnels.

I'll pay for it and blow'em up.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14824 on: February 28, 2025, 01:37:56 AM »
Assuming this is largely accurate, what's really frustrating and heartbreaking about October 7 is the fact the intelligence failure seems to have been the smallest issue.

The strategic failure, where Israel did not prioritize destroying Hamas over the last 20 years, led to a serious failure of basic security precautions.
The strategic failure is based on a much larger catastrophic intelligence and/or analysis failure.
The decisions at the political level about how to deal with Gaza/Hamas over the past two decades were based on the information and analysis of Hamas' intentions and capabilities given to them by the various intelligence agencies. These, we now know, were seriously flawed at best. (Plus it is probable that the political echelon were never given the full intelligence picture)

(Sorry to get into Israeli politics but) the drive to lay all blame at the the feet of those who made the strategic decisions (ie bibi and his various cabinets) while whitewashing the epic failures of the intelligence services at each and every stage is heavily influenced by anti Bibi bias.
(That's not to say that Bibi bears no responsibility. Far from it)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2025, 02:33:01 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14825 on: February 28, 2025, 02:54:45 AM »
The strategic failure is based on a much larger catastrophic intelligence and/or analysis failure.

Or in other words ignoring שו"ע סי׳ שכט.

Or for those that aren't capable of deducing Halachic opinions, ignoring what the enemy has been saying, and attributing to it some imaginary intentions.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14826 on: February 28, 2025, 03:03:47 AM »
The intelligence failure, where Israel did not recognize Hamas true intentions and capabilities over the last 20 years, led to a serious failure of basic security precautions.
FTFY
Israels intelligence services decided that Hamas was neutered, defeated, and no longer interested in war with Israel, rather being in control and building some sort of kleptocracy in Gaza.
Any threat of infiltration was judged to be a small cell of terrorists. They never, ever dreamed of a full invasion by massive numbers of terrorists.
Which explains all your questions.

But for Gaza, Israel had the military power, if not the diplomatic cover, to neutralize Hamas long ago. And the cost of keeping a much larger force to watch Gaza, canceling leaves at the first sign of trouble, or keeping more helicopters and fighter jets ready is so small. And when you hear that a few smaller places were spared due to a simple locked gate, you wonder why
 weren't all the kibbutzim within walking distance of Gaza property prepared?! Why were the local security under-equipped?! Who let a festival like Nova go ahead in such a place and with whatever security it had? Why weren't real plans drawn up for defense against an invasion?
The enemy is not interested in war, they want peace. You don't attack that enemy, you live with them and encourage them to be more peaceful.
They spent billions of shekel to create a system that would allow them to watch the Gaza border very well and deal with any sort of infiltration.
Canceling leaves is on of the failures of the night of Simchas Torah.
The IAFs readiness costs more than you would believe, and was affected by all the shtuyot of the previous year.
The places that were spared were Yad Hashem. Locked gates were easily breached in many yishuvim.
If there was no invasion threat from Gaza, then the yishuvim WERE properly prepared for infiltrations of lone or small cells of terrorists.
Why would you not approve Nova in these conditions?
And due to all the intelligence, analysis, and imagination failures, they never dreamed or conceived of the possibility of invasion, so they never even thought of the need to consider drawing up plans of defense.

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14827 on: February 28, 2025, 03:04:25 AM »
The strategic failure is based on a much larger catastrophic intelligence and/or analysis failure.
The decisions at the political level about how to deal with Gaza/Hamas over the past two decades were based on the information and analysis of Hamas' intentions and capabilities given to them by the various intelligence agencies. These, we now know, were seriously flawed at best. (Plus it is probable that the political echelon were never given the full intelligence picture)

(Sorry to get into Israeli politics but) the drive to lay all blame at the the feet of those who made the strategic decisions (ie bibi and his various cabinets) while whitewashing the epic failures of the intelligence services at each and every stage is heavily influenced by anti Bibi bias.
(That's not to say that Bibi bears no responsibility. Far from it)
Huh, where did I mention Bibi?
The security failings, including under protected border kibbutzim, lack of IDF plans, and the fact it takes a couple hours to move a fighter jet after a direct order from the ramatkal have nothing to do with bibi.

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14828 on: February 28, 2025, 03:07:01 AM »
Assuming this is largely accurate,


I have several bridges to sell you for a bargain price at top locations.
Is there a specific disagreement you have? Or just implication?

In another thread you were pretty derisive of the IAF, this report/article seems to bolster your angle, not threaten it.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14829 on: February 28, 2025, 03:19:31 AM »
Huh, where did I mention Bibi?
The security failings, including under protected border kibbutzim, lack of IDF plans, and the fact it takes a couple hours to move a fighter jet after a direct order from the ramatkal have nothing to do with bibi.
Dont mean to put words in your mouth
But that's the view being pushed bythe anti Bibi camp.

Strategic = long term geopolitical/military plans and decisions vis a vie how to deal with gaza, supposed to be made at the political level
Security = the long and short term decisions made by the defense establishment.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2025, 03:25:50 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14830 on: February 28, 2025, 03:26:00 AM »
Dont mean to put words in your mouth
ButIs more or less saying it's Bibi's fault.
Projection.

ETA: your edit now just has me confused.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14831 on: February 28, 2025, 03:29:09 AM »
Projection.

ETA: your edit now just has me confused.
Realized I was projecting on you, so edited.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14832 on: February 28, 2025, 04:01:42 AM »
Is there a specific disagreement you have? Or just implication?

In another thread you were pretty derisive of the IAF, this report/article seems to bolster your angle, not threaten it.
It was rather hard to go beyond the first 2 paragraphs which are complete BS. I mostly continued reading to get clarifications as to what is meant "Sword of Democles" and "Hannibal directive", but all I found were additional lies and BS excuses.

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14833 on: February 28, 2025, 04:31:21 AM »
It was rather hard to go beyond the first 2 paragraphs which are complete BS. I mostly continued reading to get clarifications as to what is meant "Sword of Democles" and "Hannibal directive", but all I found were additional lies and BS excuses.
Do you want to explain the BS of the first two paragraphs? Care to list some of the additional lies and BS excuses?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14834 on: February 28, 2025, 10:03:59 AM »
Do you want to explain the BS of the first two paragraphs? Care to list some of the additional lies and BS excuses?

אך דעו נא רבותי כי רבים הם ואי אפשר לפורטן.

How about you quote any truthful information from there?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14835 on: February 28, 2025, 11:50:23 AM »
אך דעו נא רבותי כי רבים הם ואי אפשר לפורטן.

How about you quote any truthful information from there?
none of us are in your head.
And asserting that things are senseless on the power of the fact that they are so in your head, has 0 persuasive value.

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14836 on: February 28, 2025, 12:13:36 PM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/404660

"New" Army leadership is same as old have not learnt anything; plans to send in young kids to die r'l in guerilla warfare, while still continuing UNhumanitarian aid bs.

They need a good old-fashioned hermetical siege with aerial bombardment ala firebombing of Tokyo until full submission.

Offline NTorch

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14837 on: February 28, 2025, 01:00:03 PM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/404660

"New" Army leadership is same as old have not learnt anything; plans to send in young kids to die r'l in guerilla warfare, while still continuing UNhumanitarian aid bs.

They need a good old-fashioned hermetical siege with aerial bombardment ala firebombing of Tokyo until full submission.

When was tokyo firebombed? Are you thinking of Hiroshima and Nagaski?

Offline Mr. CC

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14838 on: February 28, 2025, 01:04:57 PM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/404660

"New" Army leadership is same as old have not learnt anything; plans to send in young kids to die r'l in guerilla warfare, while still continuing UNhumanitarian aid bs.

They need a good old-fashioned hermetical siege with aerial bombardment ala firebombing of Tokyo until full submission.
They have to talk this way to get the terrorists to negotiate

Offline UKinNYS

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Re: Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #14839 on: February 28, 2025, 01:05:44 PM »
When was tokyo firebombed? Are you thinking of Hiroshima and Nagaski?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo