Israel vs. Iran And Proxies: War Discussion Master Thread

[AYHG]

The חזקוני and שפתי חכמים deal with the בן סורר ומורה question. Yes, we do have a precedent for Gaza, it’s called עמלק. (Now I’ll wait for all the posts blasting me..)

Your position is indefensible. As I noted in my original post, עמלק, or any other exceptions in tanach, ARE EXCEPTIONS! Standing up for morality means standing up for it even when you're angry. I recall seeing a torah source (can't remember where, maybe someone can identify what I'm referring to) describing the mitzvah to erase amalek as the most difficult in the torah. It is reprehensible that you think you can (or that you'd even want to) go ahead and extrapolate that to Yishmael.

Incorrect. I heard from R’ Avigdor Miller Zt”l that “don’t think children are like animals, they possess a lot of intelligence and are judged in the heavenly scales accordingly. The reason they are patur בדיני אדם is unrelated”.

I will safely assume that this is a total misquote (or taken completely out of context) as it seems to be in direct contradiction to multiple sources in our mesorah that identify age 13 as the starting point for any responsibility at all and age 20 for דיני שמים.
(See first Rashi in this week's parsha, for example and Shabbos 89b "דַּל עֶשְׂרִין דְּלָא עָנְשַׁתְּ עֲלַיְיהוּ". It's also seemingly an explicit posuk in Bamidbar 14:29 recording the consequences for the generation of the meraglim who wept: בַּמִּדְבָּ֣ר הַ֠זֶּ֠ה יִפְּל֨וּ פִגְרֵיכֶ֜ם וְכׇל־פְּקֻדֵיכֶם֙ לְכׇל־מִסְפַּרְכֶ֔ם מִבֶּ֛ן עֶשְׂרִ֥ים שָׁנָ֖ה וָמָ֑עְלָה אֲשֶׁ֥ר הֲלִֽינֹתֶ֖ם עָלָֽי׃. Did only those above 20 weep?)

Besides, even this misquote contradicts your egregious statement, as we're presumably talking about דיני אדם when considering actions in Gaza.

For those wondering why this position even warrants a response: a large chunk of the 5200+ posts on this thread voice our legitimate outrage at the lack of moral clarity in the aftermath of Oct 7. If we expect the nations of the world to take a stand for morality and against evil, we have a basic responsibility not to allow words like this to be aired unprotested.

[Just A Jew]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/raam-party-demands-resignation-of-mk-for-casting-doubt-on-october-7-massacres/

Mansour Abbas has been surprisingly moderate and supportive throughout. IMO, he should be a part of whatever solution they come up with for when this is over.

[Just A Jew]

He still supports fake news in Gaza leading the PR war against common sense. But I guess, if even he doesn't support a long term ceasefire...

Meaning he still calls it a genocide and things like that which are hateful, incite hate, and factually proven incorrect.

Which is why

When you're to the left of Bernie Sanders, you know you're off the reservation.

[CountValentine]

@cv

When the call comes for a cease-fire will you still agree with this?
"The unity and goodheartedness of the American people will prevail."

[yfr bachur]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/raam-party-demands-resignation-of-mk-for-casting-doubt-on-october-7-massacres/

Mansour Abbas has been surprisingly moderate and supportive throughout. IMO, he should be a part of whatever solution they come up with for when this is over.

If there were more arab leaders like him... peace may be possible

[CountValentine]

He still supports fake news in Gaza leading the PR war against common sense. But I guess, if even he doesn't support a long term ceasefire...

Meaning he still calls it a genocide and things like that which are hateful, incite hate, and factually proven incorrect.

When you agree with him, he seems like the smartest person in the world.

When you disagree with him, he is a left-wing nutcase.

Now that sounds reasonable to me. 

[Dan]

When you agree with him, he seems like the smartest person in the world.

When you disagree with him, he is a left-wing nutcase.

Now that sounds reasonable to me. 

He is a left-wing nutcase.
You also don't want to be to the left of a left-wing nutcase. Congresspeople will take note.

[Boruch999]

Wow! This is huge.

https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1721210519917343116

He said Chamas, with a ches!

[Dan]

https://twitter.com/AriBermanYU/status/1721216324435628261

[CountValentine]

Someone is listening!!!

[ExGingi]

I would direct the question to Bibi. 

Cop out!

It's not Bibi's place to lecture the US administration on whether a member of the admin is right or wrong and how to deal with it.

[CountValentine]

Cop out!

It's not Bibi's place to lecture the US administration on whether a member of the admin is right or wrong and how to deal with it.

Bibi took action on a real-life situation not a hypothetical. He made the right decision.
Now if you have a problem with that decision then it is not me you need to be asking.   

[Let3]

2500 targets that are mostly buildings or tunnels under buildings. We are all going to pretend we have absolutely no idea how many civilians have been killed.

IDF: More than 2,500 targets struck in Gaza since beginning of ground operation
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/idf-more-than-2-500-targets-struck-in-gaza-since-beginning-of-ground-operation/ar-AA1jpd22?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=1e4dfe627cd142e5a59b5843f5ccbb35&ei=6

I’m sorry, but there is no point in these types of posts unless you are trying to trigger and bait people in this group.
Do you have any idea how many “civilians” have been killed??
 
No one is pretending anything and honestly no one know anything either.
You are insinuating if 2500 targets were hit - mostly on “civilian buildings” as you say - hey it almost sounds reasonable that then there should be minimum 25,000 “civilian casualties” (10 per building? Sounds about right) - but hey, that would make your number great than hamas numbers themselves (you posted 9,488 - and that includes Hamas terrorists as far as I can say).
 
So either you believe Hamas or you trust that Israel is doing their best to limit civilian casualties and maybe their warnings to leave building are actually doing something.
Either way Israel cannot stop here and have a duty to defend their people from this happening again - which you claim to agree with.
So to keep posting these messages is (fill in the blank however you choose).
 

[imayid2]

What would you say in a hypothetical case where ch”v a gunman was holding a Jewish child whom he was believably guaranteeing to keep alive as a human shield and eventually release, while he was systematically picking off Jews by the thousands? Would מאי חזית require that the whole nation be slaughtered one by one rather than taking him and his human shield out if that were the alternative? Is that really analogous to שבע בן בכרי or תנו אחת where the attackers specifically seek to kill that Jew and the הצלה is to specifically hand the Jew of to death as a stand alone מעשה?

Good questions, I don’t know.

Even more so would the hostages in our case be considered a רודף since they provide cover for the terrorist to kill? We know רודף is even passive or involuntary like עובר or חמרא.

No, I don’t think there is any tzad at all that hostages can be considered a rodef.

I never heard anyone question the idea of bombing the concentration camps to save millions of Jews despite the inevitable killing of a few Jews who might have survived.

Rav Yitzchok Zilbershtein has a shiur on the topic of killing human shields, he points out that the problem could potentially be applicable in bombing concentration camps. He bleibs tzarich iyun on both. (Obviously if you don’t know for certain Jews would be killed in the bombings of rails or gas chambers it’s a different shayla.)

[ExGingi]

Bibi took action on a real-life situation not a hypothetical. He made the right decision.
Now if you have a problem with that decision then it is not me you need to be asking.

I asked you because you quoted a MSM false headline!

Unfortunately, the global and Israeli MSM won't miss an opportunity to hurt the Israeli cause, they will shoot first, and then if needed, apologize and correct after the damage was done. Bibi is the master of media, so he knows how to handle them and what is dangerous.

BTW, are you aware that said minister did participate in a cabinet vote after "punishment" announced?

[ExGingi]

https://x.com/MosabHasanYOSEF/status/1721141204023390547?s=20

https://x.com/MosabHasanYOSEF/status/1721234554126795213?s=20

[Just A Jew]

When you agree with him, he seems like the smartest person in the world.

When you disagree with him, he is a left-wing nutcase.

Now that sounds reasonable to me. 

No one said he's the smartest person in the world. In fact, the posts were all saying that if even he gets this, how crazy are you to be even more extreme than Bernie.

[CountValentine]

Do you have any idea how many “civilians” have been killed??

No, only a guesstimate.

You are insinuating if 2500 targets were hit - mostly on “civilian buildings” as you say

I never said "civilian buildings". It would be helpful if read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote.

hey it almost sounds reasonable that then there should be minimum 25,000 “civilian casualties” (10 per building? Sounds about right) 

Where did I say this.

[AYHG]

OK, so why was he judged favorably after that, באשר הוא שם.

I recall one of the meforshim explaining that he did teshuvah in that moment. This is necessary according to the midrash that places his age at 27.

Other sources place his age at 16-19 considering that the Torah tells us that this story took place in the aftermath of Yitzchak's weaning and taking into account Yishmael's 14 year age gap with Yitzchok. According to this view, he'd be exempt from דיני שמים as he was under 20.

In the pesukim, he's referred to as a "naar" and a "yeled". According to the first view this might suggest that Hashem was testifying that his maturity level was like that of a naar and therefore wasn't fully culpable for his actions. (Sort of like the more modern "nekudas Habechirah" arguement.) According to the second view, it's literal as far as דיני שמים consequences are concerned.

[Just A Jew]

2500 targets that are mostly buildings or tunnels under buildings. We are all going to pretend we have absolutely no idea how many civilians have been killed.

Yes. We have no idea. How many civilians does this translate to? How many targets were occupied and how many were abandoned? How many had 1 person vs 100? What exactly does this info tell you? I'm not seeing it...