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« Last edited by ExGingi on November 27, 2023, 05:15:11 PM »

Author Topic: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION  (Read 803328 times)

Online Yehuda57

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10760 on: May 20, 2024, 01:53:55 PM »
Here's what the prosecutor has to say about that:

On 5 February 2021, Pre-Trial Chamber I decided that the Court can exercise its criminal jurisdiction in the Situation in the State of Palestine and that the territorial scope of this jurisdiction extends to Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. This mandate is ongoing and includes the escalation of hostilities and violence since 7 October 2023. My Office also has jurisdiction over crimes committed by nationals of States Parties and by the nationals of non-States Parties on the territory of a State Party.

In other words, he's making it up.

But did they make it up for Putin, Gaddafi, and Al-Bashir as well?

Offline yelped

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10761 on: May 20, 2024, 02:09:52 PM »
But did they make it up for Putin, Gaddafi, and Al-Bashir as well?
I think the difference is that the Israel has a functioning judiciary that prosecutes its own if they did something criminal as opposed to the others. The ICC is only supposed to intercede as a last resort. This is besides the jurisdiction question, FWIU.

Offline Savingsbeast

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10762 on: May 20, 2024, 02:14:35 PM »
At least in the case of Russia, they would argue that they have a functioning judiciary.

What are the parameters for the ICC to evaluate if it can rely on the judicial system of the country in question?

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10763 on: May 20, 2024, 02:15:54 PM »
I think the difference is that the Israel has a functioning judiciary that prosecutes its own if they did something criminal as opposed to the others. The ICC is only supposed to intercede as a last resort. This is besides the jurisdiction question, FWIU.

There is no "besides". Under what jurisdiction did they indict those leaders? If they have some sort of jurisdiction that enables them to indict and arrest criminals not party to their agreement and who's crimes weren't committed on their soil, then they can do the same for Israel. Whether Israel does or doesn't have courts to self-prosecute is irrelevant, they'd just say they aren't reliable, just like Russia has that but they aren't reliable.

Online Ver hut gazugt

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10764 on: May 20, 2024, 02:27:37 PM »
What happens if Bibi steps foot in one of these countries ?
nothing. He has not been found guilty yet. Which can take 20 years.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10765 on: May 20, 2024, 02:34:53 PM »
https://x.com/2023gazawar/status/1792598450363621459


𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗳𝘂𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝗚𝗮𝘇𝗮

After 2 weeks since the start of the Rafah invasion, 3/4 of the population have already evacuated to Al-Mawasi and the Safe Zone, much faster than expected.

Despite the relatively fast progress of Rafah (quicker than my model from before the invasion had predicted), the IDF assesses that the war will likely continue into 2026 (as is consistent with my own prediction of a long attritional war), and says an invasion of Lebanon will start September this year at the latest. My previous own assessment for Lebanon was also around August or September.

What then is the long-term plan for Gaza, until 2026 and later?

The IDF plans, rather than to territorially occupy the entire strip (which they do not have the forces for, and would lead to an impossible, bleeding and lengthy counter-insurgency anyway), to only seize slim military corridors bisecting Gaza at various points and splitting it into multiple West-Bank-like pockets. 2 of these corridors have already been made policy, more may be established later on.

From these corridors the IDF will then over the course of years perform heavy raids into the Hamas controlled urban areas, slowly attritioning them until Hamas (so the IDF hopes) ceases to exist as a fighting force.

The IDF thus intends to eventually "West-Bankify" the Gaza Strip: Multiple Palestinian controlled pockets cut off from each other through IDF military corridors, pacified through regular raids.

This "Corridor & Raid" strategy ("Clear-Withdraw-Clear-Withdraw..."), has already been in place for a few months now, culminating in the current raid on Jabaliya, which in my opinion is the most ambitious attempt so far. It's one thing to raid peripheral regions like Zeiytoun, Shati, and Nuseirat, but what will set expectations for the years to come is whether the IDF can also target the heart of Hamas in Jabaliya or Radwan.

The main issue with this plan of course is time. The longer the war continues the more international pressure on Israel mounts. Hamas believes that eventually it will be too much to bear, and that Israel will accept a deal that sees them withdrawing from Gaza in exchange for all remaining hostages.

This is also why the negotiations are not producing a ceasefire: Why would Sinwar trade hostages for very temporary benefits (1 month of ceasefire, return of civilians to the North) in a years long war, if he intends to trade them all for victory down the road? It would lose him the war. The only ceasefire he should ever be interested in is a permanent one, and I have reiterated this every time Hamas pretended to be interested in a ceasefire only to then return to their demand for an end of the war again (which in all honesty is the only thing that wouldn't be a loss for them).

What then is the Israeli day-after for Gaza? Essentially, a second West Bank. Without a Palestinian Authority.

Perhaps they will eventually settle on clans or some other group, or maybe they will keep Hamas in charge (just incapable of military activity after total arms blockade through Philadelphi and years of attritional warfare). The war may have gone quite differently had Israel decided on an alternative to replace Hamas rule on day 1, had it attempted the difficult path of winning hearts and minds - but this is not the strategy Israel would ever accept, and in Israel's case would probably not have worked anyway.

There will probably be more offensives in Gaza: The Safe Zone will have to be revoked for a final assault on Deir al-Balah and Nuseirat, and there will be another war in Lebanon. But I think eventually the Gaza War will simply fizzle out.

This years-long campaign will probably end with a few signatures under a piece of paper titled "Oslo III accords", unless future elections give Hamas the all-hostages-for-end-of-war deal.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10766 on: May 20, 2024, 04:29:39 PM »
Which can take 20 years.
For the rest of the world. Watch them prioritize Israel.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10767 on: May 20, 2024, 04:39:44 PM »
What am I missing, am I just really stupid? Is it not only countries that have signed the Rome statute that are part of the ICC? Neither Israel or Hamas are signatories, why would they be subject to arrest?
I don't know the answer to this question, let me know what you discover.
One thing though, Israel is a party to the conventions behind the ICJ. I believe it's possible/legal for the ICJ to refer it's verdict against a state to the ICC for prosecution against its individuals. thats not what happened here, but may come into play later. I think?

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10768 on: May 20, 2024, 04:51:24 PM »
What am I missing, am I just really stupid? Is it not only countries that have signed the Rome statute that are part of the ICC? Neither Israel or Hamas are signatories, why would they be subject to arrest?
One claim I read. Is that the icc recognizes “ a Palestinian state” and the “crimes” happened there. Maybe that is why they worded the press release as “Palestinian state and Israeli territory “.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10769 on: May 20, 2024, 05:08:53 PM »
One claim I read. Is that the icc recognizes “ a Palestinian state” and the “crimes” happened there. Maybe that is why they worded the press release as “Palestinian state and Israeli territory “.
Not every state is party to the Rome Statute. Palestine, to the extent of exists as a state, has never signed on to the treaty

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10770 on: May 20, 2024, 05:29:17 PM »
Not every state is party to the Rome Statute. Palestine, to the extent of exists as a state, has never signed on to the treaty
I looked it up. This is from icc.

On 1 January 2015, the Government of The State of Palestine lodged a declaration under article 12(3) of the Rome Statute accepting ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed ‘in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, since June 13, 2014’. This means the Court can exercise jurisdiction over acts in Palestine or committed by Palestinian nationals since 13 June 2014. In addition, the State of Palestine acceded to the Rome Statute on 2 January 2015 by depositing its instrument of accession with the UN Secretary-General and the Statute entered into force for The State of Palestine on 1 April 2015.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10771 on: May 20, 2024, 05:33:12 PM »
I looked it up. This is from icc.

On 1 January 2015, the Government of The State of Palestine lodged a declaration under article 12(3) of the Rome Statute accepting ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed ‘in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, since June 13, 2014’. This means the Court can exercise jurisdiction over acts in Palestine or committed by Palestinian nationals since 13 June 2014. In addition, the State of Palestine acceded to the Rome Statute on 2 January 2015 by depositing its instrument of accession with the UN Secretary-General and the Statute entered into force for The State of Palestine on 1 April 2015.

Who is "the Government of the State of Palestine"? Gaza was run by an entirely different government to the West Bank. What are the borders of this "state"?

Interesting that even with this they are not mentioned as a signatory to the Rome statute.

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10772 on: May 20, 2024, 05:33:34 PM »
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

May 20, 2024

Cotton: International Criminal Court Has No Jurisdiction in Israel

Washington, D.C. — Senator Tom Cotton (R-Arkansas) today released the following statement after the chief prosecutor of International Criminal Court announced he is seeking arrest warrants for leaders of Israel and Hamas, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu:

“Equating Israel’s democratically elected leaders with the perpetrators of the worst attack on Jews since WWII shows what a farce the International Criminal Court is.

Mr. Khan’s kangaroo court has no jurisdiction in Israel to pursue these anti-Semitic and politically motivated ‘charges.’ My colleagues and I look forward to making sure neither Khan, his associates nor their families will ever set foot again in the United States.”

https://www.cotton.senate.gov/news/press-releases/cotton-international-criminal-court-has-no-jurisdiction-in-israel

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Re: ISRAEL-HAMAS SIMCHAT TORAH WAR NEWS AND DISCUSSION
« Reply #10779 on: May 21, 2024, 02:17:25 AM »
Who is "the Government of the State of Palestine"? Gaza was run by an entirely different government to the West Bank. What are the borders of this "state"?

Interesting that even with this they are not mentioned as a signatory to the Rome statute.
Just came here to post what ver hut gezugt did.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/victims/state-palestine

I don't get how a government without control of a territory can sign on to a court which will then prosecute crimes committed by people other than that government, on the lands that it claims.

IOW, I get how crimes committed by others on a territory governed by a signatory can be prosecuted. And how crimes committed by a signatory can be prosecuted even if they were committed in other countries.  But how can crimes committed by others in territory governed by others be prosecuted because a random body believes they have a claim to that territory?

Interesting that the ICC hasn't updated their website yet with this new development
https://www.icc-cpi.int/fr/node/192202

Another interesting line
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-khan-kc-cairo-situation-state-palestine-and-israel
Quote
As I stated five days after the attacks that took place on the 7th of October, we have jurisdiction over crimes committed by the nationals of state parties. And therefore that jurisdiction continues over any Rome Statute crimes committed by Palestinian nationals or the nationals of any state parties on Israeli territory, if that is proven.


He also clearly believes that Hamas and all gazans are considered nationals of the State of Palestine.

Agav, his statements after Simchas Torah were pretty strong  against the crimes of Hamas.