Author Topic: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?  (Read 46596 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2023, 06:47:14 PM »
The above is way oversimplified, especially if one takes the Eidah Hachareidus/ Old Yishuv viewpoint into account.

From their point of view the Zionists poked the bear in the late 1800’s and made what was a tolerable if unpleasant golus situation in the Arabian countries and Eretz Yisrael into one where billions of Arabs foment for Israel and the Jews destruction.
Lunacy. Talk about victim blaming.

And what caused the endless expulsions, Black Death scapegoating, Inquisition, Tach V'tat, Pogroms, Blood Libels, and the Holocaust?
Or this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1033_Fez_massacre
Or this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre
Or this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed

Or just look into the Hadith, "Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews."


The one constant over the 2,000 years of exile is that no place remains tolerable in the long-term.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 07:00:55 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2023, 06:55:34 PM »

Or just look into the Quran, "Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews."


IINM that isn't in Quran but rather Hadith.
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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2023, 06:57:43 PM »

The one constant over the 2,000 years of exile is that no place remains tolerable in the long-term.

I guess this is somewhat at the crux of Zionism vs Torah Judaism. Where Zionists look at the Jewish nation like all others and therefore seek a place, whereas Torah Judaism ascribes to אין אומתנו אומה אלא בתורותיה and דברי תורה קולטין.

And to quote a very famous sicha "ועוד, והוא העיקר, אז מ׳געפינט זיך אין א גלות פנימי אין עבודת השם".
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AsherO

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #103 on: October 30, 2023, 07:01:49 PM »
https://twitter.com/nkippur/status/1719100369496678706

But let’s keep pushing for this mythical two-state solution, even though there isn’t a second party capable of running a Palestinian state in peace alongside and Israel whose right to exist it recognizes.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #104 on: October 30, 2023, 07:02:20 PM »
@SummerizeUseFullContent

Offline jye

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #105 on: October 30, 2023, 07:03:24 PM »
Thanks for adding those details. Though the name was de Haan, not Dahan. The 2nd political assassination in Israel (after גדליהו בן אחיקם)
Correct. Yisroel Yaakov Dehaan was a very colorful and controversial figure. Another close confidant of Rav Zonnenfeld named his newborn baby after the recently assasinated Dehaan. He grew up to become the ראב״ד of the Eidah Hachareidis that Dehaan lost his life representing, Dayan Yisroel Yaakov Fischer.

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #106 on: October 30, 2023, 07:12:29 PM »
There was a loud voice in the thread that is now missing... hmm

Offline jye

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #107 on: October 30, 2023, 07:22:19 PM »
Lunacy. Talk about victim blaming.

And what caused the endless expulsions, Black Death scapegoating, Inquisition, Tach V'tat, Pogroms, Blood Libels, and the Holocaust?
Or this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1033_Fez_massacre
Or this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre
Or this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed

Or just look into the Hadith, "Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews."


The one constant over the 2,000 years of exile is that no place remains tolerable in the long-term.
Most of your examples were in Christian lands. Jews fared far worse for the most part, slaughtered wholesale in the Crusades, Inquisition, Tach Vetat, and pretty much thought the Middle Ages right into the 20th Century.

In the Arabian countries the Jews fared far better. Jews were considered people of the book and had the right to practice their own religion and conduct their own affairs. Unlike the Christian lands where Jews were often barred from most professions and relegated to money lending and taverns and the like, there was plenty of opportunity for Jews in the Moslem countries,  and many became very profitable merchants. It was no picnic. Read Islam and Dhimmitude or similar works. They were second class citizens and their right to dwell was subject to head tax. The Sunni regions were generally more favorably disposed than the Shiites.

Even as second rate citizens Jews flourished in most of the Arabian lands. The Arabs were actually gifted philosophers, and well versed in the sciences and the arts while Christian Europe regressed. Jewish Philosophy was very much influenced by the Arabian culture. At the same time the Dhimmi status was also a blessing in disguise. There was little assimilation and intermarriage. Marrying a Moslem woman was punishable by death. The separate Jewish communal institutions were strong and held great sway over communal affairs. In some cases Jews engendered tremendous respect and value. The Caliphs generally loved the Jews and had many high ranking Jewish advisors. So did the Abbasids.

The massacres you cited were largely the product of civil wars or battles where the Jews found themselves in the middle. Wholesale doctrines to make a country Judenrein by wholesale murdering the Jewish population were exceedingly rare in the Arabian countries. It was when the Christians controlled Spain that the Golden age of Jewry there came to an end and tre Jews were expelled, tortured, and forcibly converted.

The situation we find ourselves over the last century in which scores of moslem countries and over a billion people fervently want to murder the Jews and cleanse the entirety of Eretz Yisrael of them is almost unparalleled in the history of Jewish Moslem relations. To dismiss the non Zionist POV as fantasy and baseless out of hand is to lack historical context. I’m not a fervent anti Zionist myself. Pretty far from it. But I recognize that they do have a substantive point of view.

The common, rather shallow POV that all moslems from the days of Mohammad are bloodthirsty animals who always would slaughter a Jew if they had half a chance and there was never any point in history where there was a possibility of peaceful coexistence is woefully misinformed. Yes chazal call Yishmael a פרא אדם. The tendencies are there. The rachamanus and revulsion to evil went solely to Avraham’s son Yitzchak. It does not mean that kill them or be killed was always the only answer.


« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 08:24:13 PM by jye »

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #108 on: October 30, 2023, 08:33:25 PM »


Here is a letter from the אמרי אמת זצ״ל of Gur, who wasn't a fervent anti Zionist to say the least, where he actually points to this as an inducement to come up to Israel.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43962&st=&pgnum=64


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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #109 on: October 30, 2023, 08:44:37 PM »
Here is a letter from the אמרי אמת זצ״ל of Gur, who wasn't a fervent anti Zionist to say the least, where he actually points to this as an inducement to come up to Israel.

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43962&st=&pgnum=64


As long as they don’t have sovereignty. I don't think Jews suffered much under Ottoman rule.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #110 on: October 30, 2023, 08:45:54 PM »
I thought there would be more concise answers. Apparently it turned into a new thread.
What I'm getting out of this whole thread is that Jewish people were always in eretz yisroel. That I know. I don't think I used the correct term (colonizer) in my question.

I wouldn't know how to answer under what grounds did Israeli people recently force people out of some part of the land.

I see three options for history

1 - Jewish people were the minority since late 1800s/ early 1900s then became a significant amount and made the locals fear a hostile or legislative takeover. Which caused fighting hence the need to fight back.

2 - there was a change in the religious beliefs of the locals which started fighting hence the need to fight back.

3 - the Jewish people started the fighting for religious/secular wants and took over land.


Are there any other options?
1 and 2 make sense but 3 isn't a defense.
This is where my history knowledge lacks. I don't know what actually happened.

I don't think it's fair to go back hundreds of years for these types of conflicts. I'd say a fair amount of years is the relative lifetime of the people when the conflicts started. Which I assume is the early 1900s so that means late 1800s I think.

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #111 on: October 30, 2023, 08:50:04 PM »
I thought there would be more concise answers. Apparently it turned into a new thread.
What I'm getting out of this whole thread is that Jewish people were always in eretz yisroel. That I know. I don't think I used the correct term (colonizer) in my question.

I wouldn't know how to answer under what grounds did Israeli people recently force people out of some part of the land.

I see three options for history

1 - Jewish people were the minority since late 1800s/ early 1900s then became a significant amount and made the locals fear a hostile or legislative takeover. Which caused fighting hence the need to fight back.

2 - there was a change in the religious beliefs of the locals which started fighting hence the need to fight back.

3 - the Jewish people started the fighting for religious/secular wants and took over land.


Are there any other options?
1 and 2 make sense but 3 isn't a defense.
This is where my history knowledge lacks. I don't know what actually happened.

I don't think it's fair to go back hundreds of years for these types of conflicts. I'd say a fair amount of years is the relative lifetime of the people when the conflicts started. Which I assume is the early 1900s so that means late 1800s I think.
Short answer is that when the UN approved some sort of Jewish state in 1948, all the neighboring Arab countries immediately declared war on the Jews. The Jews fought back and were victorious.

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #112 on: October 30, 2023, 08:53:21 PM »
Short answer is that when the UN approved some sort of Jewish state in 1948, all the neighboring Arab countries immediately declared war on the Jews. The Jews fought back and were victorious.
...and the cycle has continued ever since with each side blaming the other.
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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #113 on: October 30, 2023, 08:56:20 PM »
As long as they don’t have sovereignty. I don't think Jews suffered much under Ottoman rule.

Exactly. They are a total different culture who were historically for the most part a better place for the Jews to live. Of course, being the blessed פראי אדם they are, they can turn into two footed animals for the slightest excuse as the world has never seen. Apparently, those who sought Jewish sovereignty in Israel believed that's a risk worth taking. >:(
« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 08:59:24 PM by EliJelly »

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #114 on: October 30, 2023, 09:39:21 PM »
Most of your examples were in Christian lands. Jews fared far worse for the most part, slaughtered wholesale in the Crusades, Inquisition, Tach Vetat, and pretty much thought the Middle Ages right into the 20th Century.

In the Arabian countries the Jews fared far better. Jews were considered people of the book and had the right to practice their own religion and conduct their own affairs. Unlike the Christian lands where Jews were often barred from most professions and relegated to money lending and taverns and the like, there was plenty of opportunity for Jews in the Moslem countries,  and many became very profitable merchants. It was no picnic. Read Islam and Dhimmitude or similar works. They were second class citizens and their right to dwell was subject to head tax. The Sunni regions were generally more favorably disposed than the Shiites.

Even as second rate citizens Jews flourished in most of the Arabian lands. The Arabs were actually gifted philosophers, and well versed in the sciences and the arts while Christian Europe regressed. Jewish Philosophy was very much influenced by the Arabian culture. At the same time the Dhimmi status was also a blessing in disguise. There was little assimilation and intermarriage. Marrying a Moslem woman was punishable by death. The separate Jewish communal institutions were strong and held great sway over communal affairs. In some cases Jews engendered tremendous respect and value. The Caliphs generally loved the Jews and had many high ranking Jewish advisors. So did the Abbasids.

The massacres you cited were largely the product of civil wars or battles where the Jews found themselves in the middle. Wholesale doctrines to make a country Judenrein by wholesale murdering the Jewish population were exceedingly rare in the Arabian countries. It was when the Christians controlled Spain that the Golden age of Jewry there came to an end and tre Jews were expelled, tortured, and forcibly converted.

The situation we find ourselves over the last century in which scores of moslem countries and over a billion people fervently want to murder the Jews and cleanse the entirety of Eretz Yisrael of them is almost unparalleled in the history of Jewish Moslem relations. To dismiss the non Zionist POV as fantasy and baseless out of hand is to lack historical context. I’m not a fervent anti Zionist myself. Pretty far from it. But I recognize that they do have a substantive point of view.

The common, rather shallow POV that all moslems from the days of Mohammad are bloodthirsty animals who always would slaughter a Jew if they had half a chance and there was never any point in history where there was a possibility of peaceful coexistence is woefully misinformed. Yes chazal call Yishmael a פרא אדם. The tendencies are there. The rachamanus and revulsion to evil went solely to Avraham’s son Yitzchak. It does not mean that kill them or be killed was always the only answer.
in general it was better. But the idea of convert or die was Mohammad’s idea. He killed many many yiddin in that way.

Offline Dan

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #115 on: October 30, 2023, 09:43:58 PM »
in general it was better. But the idea of convert or die was Mohammad’s idea. He killed many many yiddin in that way.
If only the Jews seeked safe haven in Palestine en masse without trying to make a state, I'm sure the locals would have been just fine with that.
Not.
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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #116 on: October 30, 2023, 10:05:54 PM »
For those that want a more jewish/hashkafic explanation I recommend reading the empty wagon by Rabbi Shapiro.

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #117 on: October 30, 2023, 10:20:37 PM »
For those that want a more jewish/hashkafic explanation I recommend reading the empty wagon by Rabbi Shapiro.
That book certainly seems to have rubbed the other side the wrong way:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/book-review-the-empty-wagon/
 “Reading this book was like reading Nazi, Hamas or similar anti-Semitic propaganda“

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #118 on: October 30, 2023, 10:39:19 PM »
That book certainly seems to have rubbed the other side the wrong way:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/book-review-the-empty-wagon/
 “Reading this book was like reading Nazi, Hamas or similar anti-Semitic propaganda“

They would say the same about R Elchonons tshuvas as well.
Doesn’t make him wrong obv.

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2023, 10:41:51 PM »
For those that want a more jewish/hashkafic explanation I recommend reading the empty wagon by Rabbi Shapiro.
He advocates for the state of Israel to be dissolved.

Who does he think would take over of that happened?