Author Topic: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?  (Read 46602 times)

Offline Tzvi687

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2023, 10:42:27 PM »
That book certainly seems to have rubbed the other side the wrong way:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/book-review-the-empty-wagon/
 “Reading this book was like reading Nazi, Hamas or similar anti-Semitic propaganda“

Heres one quote from the link u sent
“ We live in a time where Torah is the central part of Jewish life. Yet that approach is akin to Judaism 2.0. Judaism 1.0 existed from the time the Jews entered Israel, until the destruction of the second temple. The 1,400 year period saw the central experience of Judaism not as just the Torah, but as the Temple and the land.”

What do u think?

Offline Tzvi687

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2023, 10:43:49 PM »
He advocates for the state of Israel to be dissolved.

Who does he think would take over of that happened?

Im not saying I agree with all he says.
He does explain all the background and history with lots of daas torah.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2023, 11:02:31 PM »
He advocates for the state of Israel to be dissolved.

Who does he think would take over of that happened?

Never read the book. Does he advocate that on a practical matter or as a something to be the right thing in theory, like something we should be praying for and leave it to Hashem to figure it out happening with no harm to the Jewish people?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2023, 11:03:59 PM »
He runs this website:
https://www.truetorahjews.org/
"Our mission is to inform the world that the State of Israel does NOT represent Jews or Judaism"

Offline jye

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2023, 11:04:12 PM »
Heres one quote from the link u sent
“ We live in a time where Torah is the central part of Jewish life. Yet that approach is akin to Judaism 2.0. Judaism 1.0 existed from the time the Jews entered Israel, until the destruction of the second temple. The 1,400 year period saw the central experience of Judaism not as just the Torah, but as the Temple and the land.”

What do u think?
Personally? I’d rather stick to historical fact but if you are asking me for my personal opinion I would quote Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon “שאין אומתנו אומה אלא בתורותיה”.
To the degree that one wants to trace us back as a nation to the Tekufa of בית ראשון ושני it is only through Torah that one can do so. We haven’t had a homeland, homogenous culture or political view or system, language, or any of a host of characteristics that would define a nation save one; the Torah. To deny the Torah as the central experience of Judaism and to connect to a “Judaism 1.0”focused on the Temple and Land, not the Torah is to deny our right to associate ourselves with that ancient nation any more than a guy named Anderson has a right to call himself an ancient Viking.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #125 on: October 30, 2023, 11:06:42 PM »
Never read the book. Does he advocate that on a practical matter or as a something to be the right thing in theory, like something we should be praying for and leave it to Hashem to figure it out happening with no harm to the Jewish people?
https://www.truetorahjews.org/qanda/alternative2
Quote
In your final question, you seem to be asking what we advocate doing about the state. We advocate giving it back to the gentiles

https://www.truetorahjews.org/mainalternative

Offline WayBackMachine

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Online EliJelly

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #127 on: October 30, 2023, 11:13:25 PM »
He runs this website:
https://www.truetorahjews.org/
"Our mission is to inform the world that the State of Israel does NOT represent Jews or Judaism"

That might actually be beneficial in protecting Jews all over the world, including in Israel, if the world would know that Jews ≠ Zionists. As long as they do not associate with the Arabs/Palestinians in the slightest. 

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #128 on: October 30, 2023, 11:16:31 PM »
That might actually be beneficial in protecting Jews all over the world, including in Israel, if the world would know that Jews ≠ Zionists. As long as they do not associate with the Arabs/Palestinians in the slightest.

Did you see my quote above from the Satmar Rebbe? Anti Zionism from a non Jewish (non Torah) perspective is just code for antisemitism.

Offline WayBackMachine

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #129 on: October 30, 2023, 11:20:25 PM »
there is a story about fifty years ago some arabs planned a protest against the zoinists, the קנאים wanted to join and the ruv of Yerushalayim that time strictly refused allowing them to join the arabs, and said you're against them for the part of non yidishkeit they ahve in themselves, while the arabs are against the little yidishkeit they have in themselves.
the disagreements dont align......

you're more than welcome to correct me.

Offline WayBackMachine

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #130 on: October 30, 2023, 11:22:26 PM »
https://twitter.com/hahussain/status/1719174468596101282
Quote
Dear Ms. Johnstone,

Please read a history book. The history of this conflict did not start in 2018. A century ago, when Jews started fleeing Europe to Ottoman provinces, which the British later made into Mandate Palestine, the Jews thought that if they built a modern economy with railways, ports, infrastructure, the Arabs will like them and share the land with them. But they were wrong.

Since DAY ONE (1882), the Arabs in that land have been adamant on keeping Jews away, through violence if necessary. Even before Israel was born, even before Jews formed militias to defend themselves, the Arabs used violence. In 1936, Arabs of Mandate Palestine launched the Great Arab Revolution (notice, not Palestinian revolution). In 1939, Britain conceded to Arab demands for fear of losing the big Arab bloc to the Nazis (compared to the tiny Jewish bloc). Had it not been for Britain that wrestled the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip from the hands of Israel, the whole land would have been Israel and de facto population swap would have happened across River Jordan instead of 1949 Armistice Line.

Since then, Israelis and Arabs agreed on land for peace. In 1993, Israel conceded land to Palestinians, it never got peace because this very Hamas you're defending launched suicide bombings that killed peace. Hamas never accepted peace, pledges to destroy Israel and create an Islamic Arab Palestine. Hamas is not fringe, it won the 2006 election and today commands support of one third of Palestinians, according to polls.

In 2007, Hamas killed over 300 Palestinians with the Palestinian Authority and took over the Gaza Strip. In 2023, Hamas killed 1,400 Israelis. Massacres seem to be their thing, just like their categorical refusal of recognizing Israel or accepting peace.

Please, before you Post love and peace speeches that sound reminiscent of the Summer of Love and Woodstock, read a book on the history of this conflict. Hamas is not a revolution, it's a group of thugs that massacred Palestinians before it massacred Israelis and now hides behind Gazans to get away with its crimes.

Offline Dan

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #131 on: October 30, 2023, 11:29:29 PM »
That might actually be beneficial in protecting Jews all over the world, including in Israel, if the world would know that Jews ≠ Zionists. As long as they do not associate with the Arabs/Palestinians in the slightest. 
It's actually hilarious that you think the world is anti-semitic because of Zionism or Israel's actions. As if it didn't exist prior to the thought of a state.

It's nothing but a silly justification/excuse by them. The same people that are anti-semitic today would have been anti-semitic without a state of Israel, just with a different excuse.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #132 on: October 30, 2023, 11:52:40 PM »
Did you see my quote above from the Satmar Rebbe? Anti Zionism from a non Jewish (non Torah) perspective is just code for antisemitism.

Lol, it was the same Satmar Rebbe who made this very point numerous times that telling the world that Jews ≠ Zionists would be beneficial and would be a big mitzva. (in addition to negate the chilul hashem a Torah violating so called Jewish state is making.) Like I pointed out, there is no logical claim in refuting Jew's "historic" right to Israel, of course it's antisemitism that fuels that fight. But AS comes in many shades and flavors, and many AS need (any) excuse in order to preach killing the Jews. Some AS need a instigation spark to fuel that hate and so on. If disassociating Jews from Zionists would be a known and regular phenomenon, that would essentially release the air out of many antiemetic rhetoric and people.

Take for example Iran, the biggest terror funder on earth, but also, the country with the second largest Jewish population in the Middle East, and a sitting Jewish parliament member. How is that possible? do they love Jews? of course not, but they need an excuse to kill Jews, otherwise they wouldn't be able to pretend being humane and save face. So they let the Jews live their lives there when they - by no other choice- disavow the Zionist state on a regular bases.

When one keeps the value of every Jewish life in highest value, such measures are warranted and should be endorsed. Of course we shouldn't show the slightest sympathy or association with rotzchim, but proclaiming to the world that Jews ≠ Zionists is just stating the facts which can save lives.

Offline Dan

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #133 on: October 30, 2023, 11:55:23 PM »
proclaiming to the world that Jews ≠ Zionists is just stating the facts which can save lives.
If only the Jews knew this one weird trick over the centuries, think of how many lives would have been spared from anti-semites!
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #134 on: October 30, 2023, 11:59:40 PM »
If only the Jews knew this one weird trick over the centuries, think of how many lives would have been spared from anti-semites!

You continuously seem to ignore any logic and even basic historic facts presented here. That's why you copped out my Iran example I gave. Some people prefer living in a sweet bubble than living with hard truths.

Offline yelped

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #135 on: October 31, 2023, 12:36:00 PM »
You continuously seem to ignore any logic and even basic historic facts presented here. That's why you copped out my Iran example I gave. Some people prefer living in a sweet bubble than living with hard truths.
What he is saying that Anti-Zionism is the Anti-Semitism flavor of the day. It doesn't matter if it wouldn't exist or if every Jew says he is not a Zionist. They would still hate you.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #136 on: October 31, 2023, 12:42:23 PM »
Lol, it was the same Satmar Rebbe who made this very point numerous times that telling the world that Jews ≠ Zionists would be beneficial and would be a big mitzva. (in addition to negate the chilul hashem a Torah violating so called Jewish state is making.) Like I pointed out, there is no logical claim in refuting Jew's "historic" right to Israel, of course it's antisemitism that fuels that fight. But AS comes in many shades and flavors, and many AS need (any) excuse in order to preach killing the Jews. Some AS need a instigation spark to fuel that hate and so on. If disassociating Jews from Zionists would be a known and regular phenomenon, that would essentially release the air out of many antiemetic rhetoric and people.

Take for example Iran, the biggest terror funder on earth, but also, the country with the second largest Jewish population in the Middle East, and a sitting Jewish parliament member. How is that possible? do they love Jews? of course not, but they need an excuse to kill Jews, otherwise they wouldn't be able to pretend being humane and save face. So they let the Jews live their lives there when they - by no other choice- disavow the Zionist state on a regular bases.

When one keeps the value of every Jewish life in highest value, such measures are warranted and should be endorsed. Of course we shouldn't show the slightest sympathy or association with rotzchim, but proclaiming to the world that Jews ≠ Zionists is just stating the facts which can save lives.

I'm the first to admit I don't know the Satmar Rebbe's shitos all that well, if at all, but I'm seeing a clearly cited source that makes clear argument that doesn't square with much of your post, or at least your conclusions from his other statements.

To me, the notion that antisemites won't have "an excuse" without Zionism is naive wishful thinking at best.

You continuously seem to ignore any logic and even basic historic facts presented here. That's why you copped out my Iran example I gave. Some people prefer living in a sweet bubble than living with hard truths.

Yes Iran, where despite Jews knowing they have to be vocally anti Israel, 13 Jews have been executed, and something like 80,000 have fled out of fear. If they would have just been even more vocally anti Zionist they wouldn't have had to separate from their toddler children and send them to America with the chance of never seeing them again. And yes, they have a token parliamentary seat that comes with as much power as a DDF salad correspondent.

And what of Libya, Algeria, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Egypt, and on and on, about a million Jews escaping when all they had to do was denounce Zionism (which they mostly weren't part of).


Online EliJelly

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #137 on: October 31, 2023, 08:12:46 PM »
What he is saying that Anti-Zionism is the Anti-Semitism flavor of the day. It doesn't matter if it wouldn't exist or if every Jew says he is not a Zionist. They would still hate you.

To me, the notion that antisemites won't have "an excuse" without Zionism is naive wishful thinking at best.

Yes Iran, where despite Jews knowing they have to be vocally anti Israel, 13 Jews have been executed, and something like 80,000 have fled out of fear. If they would have just been even more vocally anti Zionist they wouldn't have had to separate from their toddler children and send them to America with the chance of never seeing them again. And yes, they have a token parliamentary seat that comes with as much power as a DDF salad correspondent.

And what of Libya, Algeria, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Egypt, and on and on, about a million Jews escaping when all they had to do was denounce Zionism (which they mostly weren't part of).

You don't need to prove to me that (non Jewish) anti-zionism is directly rooted in pure antisemitism. But antisemitism is often a benign cancer, there are certain events and actions that cause it to spark. No one can deny that what sparks "hate into action" is very much correlated with the actions of Israel, especially Muslim AS. The Middle Eastern and North African Jewish communities you mentioned are actually a great example for that. While the Jews lived there for centuries in relatively peace, it was the creation of the state that sparked AS in those regions forcing them to flee. Viewing the Jews and Zionist as one and the same isn't helpful, but that's the default view, especially when Israel always pretends to represent and speak for all Jews. Knowing that they do not represent Jews, can actually mitigate AS attacks.

I once saw a clip from the above mentioned Rav Shapiro interviewed by the press after a major Satmar protest in Manhattan. He was asked to respond to Israel's human rights aggressions against Palestinians etc. He answered "Why aren't you asking me about China's human right aggressions?! Am I responsible for China's actions? why do you hold me responsible for Israel's actions". 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 08:21:21 PM by EliJelly »

Offline yelped

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #138 on: October 31, 2023, 08:22:13 PM »
I once saw a clip from the above mentioned Rav Shapiro interviewed by the press after a major Satmar protest in Manhattan. He was asked to respond to Israel's human rights aggressions against Palestinians etc. He answered "Why aren't you asking me about China's human right aggressions?! am I responsible for China's actions? why do you keep me responsible for Israel's actions".
And does that have an any effect? No!

Yes, Israel's actions (existence, actually) can be the spark behind AS, but saying "oh, I'm not Zionist" does absolutely nothing, and just serves to embolden our enemies, and in fact, increases Anti-Semitism due to that.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #139 on: October 31, 2023, 08:29:41 PM »
And does that have an any effect? No!

Yes, Israel's actions (existence, actually) can be the spark behind AS, but saying "oh, I'm not Zionist" does absolutely nothing, and just serves to embolden our enemies, and in fact, increases Anti-Semitism due to that.

Your assumptions on something that was never tried. A few people proclaiming that is worthless, as long as it's not a widespread known phenomenon. I don't have high hopes anyway, instead we all run in solidarity with Israel, we all denounce and ridicule every AS out there on social media because that's the proven working method time and again.

(Eta. needless to say that no such proclamations should be made, and isn't ever made, in times like these after terror attacks on Israelis/Jews. That can indeed have an adverse affect and could be interpreted as being callous for the plight of the victims CV. Was opining on the general disassociation)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 08:53:15 PM by EliJelly »