Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?

[CountValentine]

If the Indians would make a comeback to conquer the US everyone would be cool and say it’s their right?

When do you want to start the discussion from? 

[imayid2]

Would we call them colonizers if they did?

Absolutely not. Calling Israelis colonizers is an attempt to deny any historical connection.

[imayid2]

When do you want to start the discussion from? 

There is no need to discuss if the Jews were ever there as everyone knows they were there for hundreds of years before they were vanquished by Rome.

[CountValentine]

There is no need to discuss if the Jews were ever there as everyone knows they were there for hundreds of years before they were vanquished by Rome.

Thats the point. It wouldn't be fair to start the discussion after that point.

[Yehuda57]

Thats the point. It wouldn't be fair to start the discussion after that point.

Even if you are not making a religious argument, the biblical starting point is important. Whenever you hear people talk of the history of the conflict, people speak about the Zionists that moved to Palestine. There is little talk of the Jews that moved there as a holy land, nothing to do with Zionism. I don't know the numbers, but a good portion of the Jews living in Palestine prior to 1947 were not part of the Zionist movement.

Similarly, after the Holocaust, Jews tried to make their way to Palestine not as part of the Zionist movement, but simply because as Jews that's where home is.

If your argument for the conflict is a religious one then you have lost before you have begun.

Here is an interview with a historian who most here would disagree with immensely, definitely not within our echo chamber at all:

Then he did an interview with a Palestinian activist:

I'm using Coleman as I have found him to be a fair and honest speaker, and he is not someone who came to this issue with a bias. Needless to say, there is loads in both videos I disagree with vehemently, including what I view as outright lies and lies of terrible commission.

[aygart]

No. It begins with Genesis 1:1 and the required commentary on the Torah from Rashi written 1,000 years ago.

Also in last week's parsha about how the cenaanim were conquering EY from the children of Shem to whom Noach assigned the land. As such, even if you could connect the Palestinians to the Pelishtim, it is they who are the colonizers.

[JMHO]

For someone trying to understand the conflict would the beginning of the 19th century be a good starting point?

Well, it depends what 'conflict' you're trying to understand.

[ExGingi]

Religion is a belief system that comes in many different flavors.
It just can't be used as the basis for the claim.

If only you could understand what Elyahu Behruz Yusian was saying in the most recent video of him that I posted. If I have time I will try to translate. In the meantime, to your point he says that whether you like it or not, you need to use the correct "manual"/"operating instructions". In the Middle East it IS RELIGIOUS! The Jewish claim to the land is religious, the Muslim claim to Al Aqsa is religious, and the Hamas charter is religious (The would Hamas is based on sn acronyms which translates to "ISLAMIC resistance organization").

If you insist on ignoring the instruction manual and insisting on basing everything on Western Democratic Values, you will end up just like Iraq, Egypt, etc.

[CountValentine]

Even if you are not making a religious argument, the biblical starting point is important. Whenever you hear people talk of the history of the conflict, people speak about the Zionists that moved to Palestine. There is little talk of the Jews that moved there as a holy land, nothing to do with Zionism. I don't know the numbers, but a good portion of the Jews living in Palestine prior to 1947 were not part of the Zionist movement.

What was the ethnic makeup of Palestine around 1947?

[CountValentine]

If only you could understand what Elyahu Behruz Yusian was saying in the most recent video of him that I posted. If I have time I will try to translate. In the meantime, to your point he says that whether you like it or not, you need to use the correct "manual"/"operating instructions". In the Middle East it IS RELIGIOUS! The Jewish claim to the land is religious, the Muslim claim to Al Aqsa is religious, and the Hamas charter is religious (The would Hamas is based on sn acronyms which translates to "ISLAMIC resistance organization").

If you insist on ignoring the instruction manual and insisting on basing everything on Western Democratic Values, you will end up just like Iraq, Egypt, etc.

You want to use religion then we will use the Quran, ok?

[yelped]

You want to use religion then we will use the Quran, ok?

Quran doesn't mention Jerusalem lol. In any case, there's no denying the Jewish connection way before Islam.

[ExGingi]

What was the ethnic makeup of Palestine around 1947?

[Boruch999]

What was the ethnic makeup of Palestine around 1947?

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

Seem to generally agree

[ExGingi]

You want to use religion then we will use the Quran, ok?

I am no expert on the Quran.

I do recall seeing a video by an Islamic scholar (or maybe just a journalist) stating that the Quran says it belongs to the Jews

[CountValentine]

I listen to the first 5 minutes and they did exactly what they are excusing the other side of doing.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

Seem to generally agree

Thank you. Everything I have seen and heard says about 28-33% of the population.
If we were going to take that as a starting point, I know which side I would want to debate. 

[JMHO]

What was the ethnic makeup of Palestine around 1947?

If we were going to take that as a starting point, I know which side I would want to debate. 

Sure, pick a year that fits your narrative
I had family living in J-M a hundred years before that!

[JMHO]

You want to use religion then we will use the Quran, ok?

Ok. What does the Quran say about Jerusalem?
(Hint: it doesn't)

[smurf]

I listen to the first 5 minutes and they did exactly what they are excusing the other side of doing. Thank you. Everything I have seen and heard says about 28-33% of the population.
If we were going to take that as a starting point, I know which side I would want to debate. 

28-33% of the population, not the land.
Much of the land was state owned.

[CountValentine]

Sure, pick a year that fits your narrative

It is not my narrative. According to links posted, you go back further and there was less Jews. You want to start in 1517 when there was less than 2% Jews in Palestine?

[Yehuda57]

I listen to the first 5 minutes and they did exactly what they are excusing the other side of doing.

Their basic argument against the lie of the first map is indisputably correct. The map is marked as "green" everywhere there are no Jews, even if there are no people at all. Why are you working on the assumption it is green and not white? If you just color code for the number of inhabitants there are, then instead of having a massive swath of green with a few white dots, you have a massive swath of uninhabited swamp and desert land, and then sporadic green dots and sporadic white dots (albeit more green than white, but nothing close to the ratio depicted in the map)

Everything I have seen and heard says about 28-33% of the population.
If we were going to take that as a starting point, I know which side I would want to debate. 

I would happily and easily debate you. If the debate was about land ownership or self-determination, this conflict would have been over before it started.