Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?

[imayid2]

What's the source of confusion? Are you familiar with the content of יהדות התורה והמדינה?

The confusion is the return of a ostensibly “Jewish” state and the overall success of Israel as a country which seems to be a heralding of the end of times, contrasted with its deeply secular aspects which are the antithesis to that.

I am not familiar. There are all types of schools of thought about this. (Wikipedia has a page summarizing different Chareidy perspectives on the State.)

[Definitions2]

I am unfamiliar with the term Spidey Sense (wasn't in any Yeshiva curriculum I am familiar with). As for the Rambam a link was posted above.

Now that I looked it up, yes I was familiar with it.
You're saying that you believe this is part of the filtering process?

Actually no, you mentioned specifically Jesus. I'm not sure what you wanted to show from there then.

[imayid2]

Who wrote Deuteronomy and when?

Moses about 3k years ago. The last 8 verses Joshua according to some.

[ExGingi]

The confusion is the return of a ostensibly “Jewish” state and the overall success of Israel as a country which seems to be a heralding of the end of times, contrasted with its deeply secular aspects which are the antithesis to that.

I am not familiar. There are all types of schools of thought about this. (Wikipedia has a page summarizing different Chareidy perspectives on the State.)

You should read יהדות התורה והמדינה it's not that long (about 50 pages IIRC) available online in several places.

[ExGingi]

Now that I looked it up, yes I was familiar with it.
You're saying that you believe this is part of the filtering process?

Actually no, you mentioned specifically Jesus. I'm not sure what you wanted to show from there then.

וְכִי יֵשׁ מִכְשׁוֹל גָּדוֹל מִזֶּה, שֶׁכָּל הַנְּבִיאִים דִּבְּרוּ שֶׁהַמָּשִׁיחַ גּוֹאֵל יִשְׂרָאֵל וּמוֹשִׁיעָם, וּמְקַבֵּץ נִדְחֵיהֶם וּמְחַזֵּק מִצְוָתָן, וְזֶה גָּרַם לְאַבֵּד יִשְׂרָאֵל בַּחֶרֶב, וּלְפַזֵּר שְׁאֵרִיתָם וּלְהַשְׁפִּילָם, וּלְהַחֲלִיף הַתּוֹרָה, וּלְהַטְעוֹת רוֹב הָעוֹלָם לַעֲבֹד אֱלוֹהַּ מִבַּלְעֲדֵי ה'.

[Definitions2]

I think I understand what you meant.
Just like by Jesus it caused massive amounts of damage from false beliefs. So too here people thinking that the state of Israel is part of mashiachs process can cause a massive amount of damage.

But you're not comparing. Meaning to say the amount of damage?

[ExGingi]

I think I understand what you meant.
Just like by Jesus it caused massive amounts of damage from false beliefs. So too here people thinking that the state of Israel is part of mashiachs process can cause a massive amount of damage.

But you're not comparing. Meaning to say the amount of damage?

I am definitely not comparing the amount or type of damage. The only comparison is the fallacy in claiming this is a beginning of גאולה, when it obviously is the opposite when you look at the relevant details.

I really think יהדות התורה והמדינה is mandatory reading before discussing the topics. It lays out the foundations very clearly.

[EliJelly]

I am definitely not comparing the amount or type of damage. The only comparison is the fallacy in claiming this is a beginning of גאולה, when it obviously is the opposite when you look at the relevant details.

I really think יהדות התורה והמדינה is mandatory reading before discussing the topics. It lays out the foundations very clearly.

Seeing now on the newer printed version it has the Haskamah of Rav Chaim Kanievsky. רב אוריאל צימר was a חסיד חב״ד, wrote in דער איד, and has Haskamah from Rav Chaim, literally he has it all.

https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=64965#p=1&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=

He was a genius and a polyglot who mastered 17 languages and worked in the UN as a interpreter. The then UN General Secretary Dag Hammarskjöld told him once that he's a walking United Nations, due to his mastery of so many languages, to which he replied, "yet with no nation of my own".

[jye]

The Brisker take on it.

[imayid2]

The Brisker take on it.

What is the last paragraph supposed to mean? The wars in Israel are mainly fought to conquer land and not to defend Jewish lives?

What in the world. 

[yelped]

The damage is done, but we can stop further association. Also, we gotta make it our business that "we" don't lose sight of the truths, even though we cannot fix the world out there. You'd know better than me how many in Chabad share your clarity on Zionism. I'm glad I can do this service here on DDF

How in the world is further dissociation going to bring Mashiach? This couldn't be further than the truth. I think something we can learn from Hashem's master plan that should be obvious to all that all these disagreements that lead us so apart from each other are falleous and should come to an end.  Chareidim can very quickly lead to a mass change in the atmosphere of EY if they come together and work together Lshem Shamayim.

[imayid2]

Chareidim can very quickly lead to a mass change in the atmosphere of EY if they come together and work together Lshem Shamayim.

How so?

[jye]

What is the last paragraph supposed to mean? The wars in Israel are mainly fought to conquer land and not to defend Jewish lives?

What in the world.

I’m not sure. I’m guessing the expansion of Israel buying the original 1947 partition plan? I’m not quite sure.

[ExGingi]

The damage is done, but we can stop further association. Also, we gotta make it our business that "we" don't lose sight of the truths, even though we cannot fix the world out there. You'd know better than me how many in Chabad share your clarity on Zionism. I'm glad I can do this service here on DDF

פלגינן דיבורא:

To your first point, since we say יתמו חטאים (ולא חוטאים) מן הארץ, as long as we are dealing with Jews, we should deal with them in a way that will bring them close to Torah and יראת שמים.

To your second point, I am glad to say that my sons share my clarity, but not because of me hammering anything into them, they rather reached it on their own through their own learning and discovery. I think it would be beneficial if יהדות התורה והמדינה is reprinted and shared with all young (and old) bochurim, so they can get a little more clarity.

THAT BEING SAID. The attitude towards the Israeli soldiers is אשרי חלקם וגדול זכותם that they are actively protecting אחינו בנ"י שבארה"ק through מסירת נפש כפשוטו!

[EliJelly]

How in the world is further dissociation going to bring Mashiach? This couldn't be further than the truth.

The "Religion of Love" refers to Christianity, not Judaism. Judaism has the concept of התבדלות מרשעים seen all over in the Torah, repeated in all the seforim of the Chasam Sofer and it was how we remained a Jewish nation all the years. Jews associating with a state that calls itself Jewish, yet violates openly every word of the Torah is a Chilul Hashem which actually "delays" the Geulah, as the Rashab points out. Chazal blamed the destruction of the second Bais H'mikdash on internal "שנאת "חנם, not on the Chachamim who fought with the צדוקים and did everything להוציא מלבן של צדוקים. The war of Chanukah was also a war with the Jewish מתיוונים. That's the actual truth here, whether you like it or not.

I think something we can learn from Hashem's master plan

We should stop "learning from Hashem's master plan" and rather start looking to what the Torah actually says.

all these disagreements that lead us so apart from each other are falleous and should come to an end. 

If you're referring to internal disagreements within the Charedim camps then I'm happy I can agree with something in your post.

[ExGingi]

The "Religion of Love" refers to Christianity, not Judaism. Judaism has the concept of התבדלות מרשעים seen all over in the Torah, repeated in all the seforim of the Chasam Sofer and it was how we remained a Jewish nation all the years. Jews associating with a state that calls itself Jewish, yet violates openly every word of the Torah is a Chilul Hashem which actually "delays" the Geulah, as the Rashab points out. Chazal blamed the destruction of the second Bais H'mikdash on internal "שנאת "חנם, not on the Chachamim who fought with the צדוקים and did everything להוציא מלבן של צדוקים. The war of Chanukah was also a war with the Jewish מתיוונים. That's the actual truth here, whether you like it or not.

To this, I can only share a famous quote (the origin of which I am unsure of): "רצינו לגדל דור של אפיקורסים, וגידלנו דור של עמי-הארצות". You cannot compare today's תינוקות שנשבו to the founders of Zionism.

[imayid2]

To this, I can only share a famous quote (the origin of which I am unsure of): "רצינו לגדל דור של אפיקורסים, וגידלנו דור של עמי-הארצות". You cannot compare today's תינוקות שנשבו to the founders of Zionism.

So you would consider Lapid Lieberman and their ilk שר״י, virulently anti religious and pushing as hard as possible to strip any vestiges of yiddeshkeit from the state, to be poor confused תינוקות שנשבו who merely need unconditional love over chicken soup and challah to immediately be חוזר בתשובה?

[ExGingi]

So you would consider Lapid Lieberman and their ilk שר״י, virulently anti religious and pushing as hard as possible to strip any vestiges of yiddeshkeit from the state, to be poor confused תינוקות שנשבו who merely need unconditional love over chicken soup and challah to immediately be חוזר בתשובה?

They are definitely תינוקות שנשבו.

I'm not sure where the "unconditional love over chicken soup and challah to immediately be חוזר בתשובה" idea comes from, but definitely an approach of "ואהבת את ה' אלהיך שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך שיהא קורא ושונה ומשמש ת"ח ויהא משאו ומתנו בנחת עם הבריות מה הבריות אומרות עליו אשרי אביו שלמדו תורה אשרי רבו שלמדו תורה אוי להם לבריות שלא למדו תורה פלוני שלמדו‏ תורה ראו כמה נאים דרכיו כמה מתוקנים מעשיו עליו הכתוב אומר (ישעיהו מט, ג) ויאמר לי עבדי אתה ישראל אשר בך אתפאר" can help.

[WayBackMachine]

here is a thread how it all started

https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1719729513985102084

[imayid2]

They are definitely תינוקות שנשבו.

On what grounds is that so clear to you?

https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/163770

מרן הגראי"ל: "לפיד לא תינוק שנשבה, הוא שובה"
מרן הגראי"ל שטיינמן נשאל האם יאיר לפיד נחש בל"תינוק שנשבה", והשיב: הוא לא "נשבה" אלא "שובה... וכוונתו להזיק". ואיזה לימודי תואר נחשב "מזוייף מתוכו"?