Author Topic: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?  (Read 53302 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #260 on: November 02, 2023, 09:47:16 AM »
I think @imayid2 can also benefit from reading it.
Started and got stuck on this utterly absurd and preposterous assertion:
Quote
וזהו החילוק שבין הדרך של ליובאוויטש להדרך של כמה ארגונים דתיים (מזרחי ואפילו אגודה). הארגונים הדתיים הנ"ל עושים ענינים של היפך ההלכה, בהנימוק, שבכדי לקרב יהודים ליהדות צריך לוותר במקצת על כמה הלכות בשביל ה"ריוח" שיהי' מזה. והיינו, שעושים מהתורה איזה ענין של "מסחר". מען פארבויגט אויף איין זאך (שנראה לדעתם אז דאס איז א קליינקייט) בכדי צו פארדינען א גרעסערע זאך. ושיטה כזו – שמעקט מיט כפירה רח"ל.
Huh?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #261 on: November 02, 2023, 09:55:19 AM »
This is from an ardent Zionist (though from the opposite side of Netanyahu) who believes that Zionism replaces Yiddishkeit. @CountValentine might find it interesting as it is a "pure" Zionist approach without mixing in our religious discussions.

https://x.com/einatwilf/status/1719719373294669967
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 10:00:12 AM by ExGingi »
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #262 on: November 02, 2023, 09:56:59 AM »
Started and got stuck on this utterly absurd and preposterous assertion:Huh?

I believe when mentioning Aguda he was referring to agreeing/keeping quiet/participating in government actions that are against הלכה as part of coalition agreements that gave funding to Yeshivos.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #263 on: November 02, 2023, 10:17:00 AM »
I believe when mentioning Aguda he was referring to agreeing/keeping quiet/participating in government actions that are against הלכה as part of coalition agreements that gave funding to Yeshivos.
Nice try but he’s clearly referring to how they view attempts to be mekarev the irreligious.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #264 on: November 02, 2023, 10:21:21 AM »
Quote
אמנם, כשיבוא מי שהוא ויסביר לי שהוא מאמין בכל דברי רבותינו הראשונים והאחרונים, ומה שהוא עושה באופן כך וכך (שלדעתי יש איסור בזה) הוא לפי שיש לו פירוש אחר בסימן פלוני בשו"ע או בשו"ת פלוני, ויביא ראיות חזקות לפירושו, ואעפ"כ אטעון: דמכיון שעד עכשיו התרגלנו (החוג שלנו) לפרש הלכה פלונית באופן אחר, לכן אינני רוצה להתחשב עם שום הוכחות נגד מה שהורגלתי – הנה באם אטעון כן, יהי' צריך להוליך אותי לבית משוגעים.
I wonder if some see certain Lubavitch a practices as falling into this category ::)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #265 on: November 02, 2023, 11:50:09 AM »
Started and got stuck on this utterly absurd and preposterous assertion:Huh?

Idk when that was written but anyone Lubavitch writing that today is at very least throwing rocks in glass houses
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #266 on: November 02, 2023, 04:09:39 PM »
Idk when that was written but anyone Lubavitch writing that today is at very least throwing rocks in glass houses

I will give 2 disclaimers:

1. This might have been edited and re-edited with various editors adding their own political touch. I have never seen the original (I can try to find out if/where it exists). Take that into account and ignore the words "ואפילו אגודה". R' Yoel is no longer around to be able to ask, and as long as we haven't seen the original, it might be someone else who added it. (What kiruv activities was Aguda involved in during the early 1980's?)
2. R' Yoel Kahan, while an amazing gaon and בעל חוש הסברה, did enjoy political fights (and wasn't very savvy politically).
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 04:19:10 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #267 on: November 02, 2023, 04:59:06 PM »
Quote
ומכיון שהלכה זו שברמב"ם היא בנוגע לכל אחד מישראל, גם בפושעי ישראל הכי חמורים ואפילו בכופר (כמובן מסתימת דברי הרמב"ם ושאר הפוסקים שלא כתבו שום חילוק בזה) – הרי מפורש בהלכה, שכל יהודי, גם הכופר רח"ל – מה שהוא כופר הוא רק בחיצוניות, לפי ש"יצרו הוא שתקפו", אבל בפנימיות ואמיתית, מצד הנשמה שלו, הוא מאמין בהשי"ת ובתורתו (ועד שהוא מרגיש גם את פרטי דיני התורה) ורוצה לקיים את כל מצוות התורה.
וזהו הפירוש במה שארז"ל "ישראל אע"פ שחטא ישראל הוא", לפי שכל אחד מישראל, באיזה מצב שיהי', הוא רוצה (בפנימיות נפשו) לקיים את כל מצות התורה.
וזהו הטעות של המזרחים והאגודאים בפירוש מרז"ל זה:
It is unfortunate that he missed the בית יוסף who brings the words of the מהרי״ק regarding that Rambam:

This severely undermines the point he is attempting to make there.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #268 on: November 02, 2023, 06:18:35 PM »
It is unfortunate that he missed the בית יוסף who brings the words of the מהרי״ק regarding that Rambam:

This severely undermines the point he is attempting to make there.

Now the מומר entered the conversation. Is anyone claiming the Zionist leaders of Israel at any point were/are מומרים?
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #269 on: November 02, 2023, 06:55:41 PM »
R' AT of Satmar recent talk.

http://sndup.net/dx5r
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #270 on: November 02, 2023, 07:13:28 PM »
Now the מומר entered the conversation. Is anyone claiming the Zionist leaders of Israel at any point were/are מומרים?

Is there a tzad not?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #271 on: November 02, 2023, 07:23:54 PM »

Offline ExGingi

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #273 on: November 03, 2023, 10:44:57 AM »
Is this the most accurate answer to the question of this thread?

https://x.com/lizarosen0000/status/1720048699387122098
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #274 on: November 03, 2023, 01:25:57 PM »
Is this the most accurate answer to the question of this thread?

https://x.com/lizarosen0000/status/1720048699387122098

@CountValentine what did it take for Christianity to abandon the murderous violence of the Crusades and the inquisition?

Unfortunately I don't see an end to the violence until Islamists abandon murder and violence in the name of their religion.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #275 on: November 03, 2023, 01:35:31 PM »
@CountValentine what did it take for Christianity to abandon the murderous violence of the Crusades and the inquisition?
Different mindset?
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #276 on: November 03, 2023, 01:39:57 PM »
Different mindset?

How does that come about? I am seriously wondering!

ISIS, Boko Haram, Islamic Republic and it's various arms and proxies, PIJ, Hamas, and many more. How does this end?

BTW, besides the Islamic violence, there might be an Arab element to it as well. If you watched Dancing with Bashir (content warning) you'll hear evidence of gruesome acts by Christians in Lebanon.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 04:06:08 PM by ExGingi »
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #277 on: November 03, 2023, 01:45:20 PM »
I am seriously wondering?
Oops.
I am not sure. Is it that something so horrific happens that even those who never wanted to believe suddenly say I just can't stand by no more?
I never dove into the ugly past of Christianity.

ETA: The more I think about I would say for the Roman Catholic Church the change came about with the selection of a new Pope.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2023, 02:43:42 PM by CountValentine »
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Offline ExGingi

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Offline sam2015

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #279 on: November 04, 2023, 09:14:56 PM »
Is this the most accurate answer to the question of this thread?

https://x.com/lizarosen0000/status/1720048699387122098

Just to clarify: No, I don’t think they all are as barbaric as some of the more extreme Hamas members who were told to rip out the hearts and liver of the Jews. But yes, 99% of them all wish we were dead. Do you understand Islam at all? And why they are so angry at us etc?

I also don't agree with this mixing in Islam into this mess, though I'm not sure what was meant here.


I guess I wasn’t so far off…