Author Topic: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?  (Read 26743 times)

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2023, 12:25:11 PM »
It is not my narrative. According to links posted, you go back further and there was less Jews. You want to start in 1517 when there was less than 2% Jews in Palestine?
When did the 'Palestinians' arrive?

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2023, 12:26:08 PM »
Their basic argument against the lie of the first map is indisputably correct. The map is marked as "green" everywhere there are no Jews, even if there are no people at all. Why are you working on the assumption it is green and not white? If you just color code for the number of inhabitants there are, then instead of having a massive swath of green with a few white dots, you have a massive swath of uninhabited swamp and desert land, and then sporadic green dots and sporadic white dots (albeit more green than white, but nothing close to the ratio depicted in the map)
It was one of the most densely populated areas too ;)

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2023, 12:31:13 PM »
Their basic argument against the lie of the first map is indisputably correct. The map is marked as "green" everywhere there are no Jews, even if there are no people at all. Why are you working on the assumption it is green and not white? If you just color code for the number of inhabitants there are, then instead of having a massive swath of green with a few white dots, you have a massive swath of uninhabited swamp and desert land, and then sporadic green dots and sporadic white dots (albeit more green than white, but nothing close to the ratio depicted in the map)
The map shows Jewish settlements. The map is 100% correct. Of course, they are going to make everything else green as they are one-sided. In the first five minutes they claimed the green implied Palestine settlements. It did not.
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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2023, 12:32:57 PM »
When did the 'Palestinians' arrive?
Sorry you don't get to answer a question with a question. Do you want to start in 1517 with less than 2% Jewish population? Simple yes or no will do.  :P
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2023, 12:47:21 PM »
It is not my narrative. According to links posted, you go back further and there was less Jews. You want to start in 1517 when there was less than 2% Jews in Palestine?

Ok, but you know that number is so low because Jews were expelled. So the question remains, where to start? I propose a different question: ask why that number continues to rise steadily. Why did my great grandmother, who was not only not a Zionist, she was as virulent anti-Zionist as you can imagine, emigrate to "Palestine" in 1845?

Open up a Jewish prayer book, we mention our desire to return to Jerusalem *dozens* of times every single day. We have been doing this for literally 2,000 years, long before 1517. We get up in the morning? We thank G-d and pray that He returns us to Jerusalem. We eat breakfast? We say thanks to G-d and pray that he return us to Jerusalem. We read from the Torah? We thank G-d and pray that he returns us to Jerusalem. We celebrate Passover? We thank G-d and pray that He returns us to Jerusalem. Same for Yom Kippur at the height of the holiest part of the services, and every other holiday. The days Jerusalem was destroyed? We fast, mourn, and pray that G-d returns us to Jerusalem. We get married? We thank G-d and pray that he returns us to Jerusalem. (The famed custom of Jews breaking a glass by a wedding? That's what it is about).

Literally every single aspect of Jewish life every single day incorporates our connection to the holy land.

Now, if you want to try find a non-religious argument, we can do that. But you need to be well grounded in the facts of why this land is inherently Jewish, and why even if there were only 600,000 Jews in 1948, that number ballooned in the years that followed. IT wasn't a Zionist colonialist project. It was Jews who were expelled from their temporary houses, so they returned to their permanent home.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2023, 12:53:24 PM »
The map shows Jewish settlements. The map is 100% correct. Of course, they are going to make everything else green as they are one-sided. In the first five minutes they claimed the green implied Palestine settlements. It did not.

The green denotes Palestinian land, the white denotes Jewish settlements. Why don't you count the Palestinian land the same way you count the Jewish land - Palestinian settlements? That's the lie, it is indisputable.

If they would show that map, you'll still get way more green than white. But it would not look like the Jews stole all that land, it would show the Jews were given mostly uninhabited swamp and desert land, and Palestinians were given more land than they were actually inhabiting at the time, but they refused.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2023, 12:53:41 PM »
Sorry you don't get to answer a question with a question. Do you want to start in 1517 with less than 2% Jewish population? Simple yes or no will do.  :P
Why not :)
No.
What happened in 1517 that you want to start there?

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2023, 12:57:15 PM »

All I asked was where to start. Any date I picked I get accused that it supports my narrative. That is pretty hard since I don't have a narrative.
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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2023, 12:59:08 PM »
Why not :)
No.
What happened in 1517 that you want to start there?
I have no idea what happened at any point. I am trying to get a starting point so I can research from there.
It would also be helpful to state why I should start at any given point.
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Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2023, 12:59:56 PM »
I have no idea what happened at any point. I am trying to get a starting point so I can research from there.
It would also be helpful to state why I should start at any given point.
5784 years ago.
You can then choose a religious, historical or factual path to go down.

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2023, 01:01:25 PM »
Why don't you count the Palestinian land the same way you count the Jewish land - Palestinian settlements?
Because they are one-sided. I thought I made that clear.
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Offline smurf

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2023, 01:01:35 PM »
The green denotes Palestinian land, the white denotes Jewish settlements. Why don't you count the Palestinian land the same way you count the Jewish land - Palestinian settlements? That's the lie, it is indisputable.

If they would show that map, you'll still get way more green than white. But it would not look like the Jews stole all that land, it would show the Jews were given mostly uninhabited swamp and desert land, and Palestinians were given more land than they were actually inhabiting at the time, but they refused.
That is the part no one tells you.
The land that the jews got was land no one wanted it was a malaria infested swamp and the Israelis turned into into an agricultural wonder.

Contrast that with what the Palestinians did after the Israel evicted their own people from Gush Katif.
They had a multi minion dollar industry handed to them and within hours they destroyed it all along with beautiful ready to live in houses. Because jews lived in them.

As many of said. If they would love their children as much as they hate ours there would be no conflict.


Online Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2023, 01:02:57 PM »
All I asked was where to start. Any date I picked I get accused that it supports my narrative. That is pretty hard since I don't have a narrative.

"All I asked" - you asked an impossible question.

Dan said, (correctly IMHO,) start at day 1. You said that's a religious argument and it won't fly.
Now we start picking other dates, and with any date someone chooses, someone else will have an issue. For example, if you pick 1517, I will point out that that isn't a good place to start, because everyone knows that Jews were there before but were expelled. So now you are back at square one.

That's why I am saying if you can't accept day one as the answer, then you need to ask a different question.

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2023, 01:04:41 PM »
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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2023, 01:06:08 PM »
It is not really possible to discuss Jewish history without the religious component.

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2023, 01:06:40 PM »
That's why I am saying if you can't accept day one as the answer, then you need to ask a different question.
Have you ever been in mediation or arbitration? You have to have ground rules.
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2023, 01:07:56 PM »
Because they are one-sided. I thought I made that clear.

I don't know who "they" are.

Let's start again.

There is a globally accepted narrative based on a series of maps. These are maps that are recognized by governments across the globe, the UN, etc. The people in the video "debunk" those maps. You disregarded the video due to them "doing the same thing their opponents are doing."

All I am saying is that their point about the very first map of the narrative is indisputably correct. The globally accepted map marks uninhabited territory as "Palestinian" even though no Palestinians live there. This is a massive difference.

You then go on to say that the map is "100% correct" while also saying the map is incorrectly marked as green because "they are one-sided". Those can't both be true.


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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2023, 01:09:35 PM »
It is not really possible to discuss Jewish history without the religious component.
That is a problem.
All people of religion will claim that.
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Offline JMHO

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Re: Re: Random questions.
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2023, 01:11:05 PM »
LOL

You asked, I answered.
What's so funny?

Offline JMHO

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Re: Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2023, 01:12:19 PM »
That is a problem.
All people of religion will claim that.
That's fine. When did Islam start? What does the Quran say about Jerusalem?