Rally in Washington 11/14/23

[whacked1]

Can someone link to the topic here on DDF when there was the opposite controversy when someone lashed at the Agudah convention how come there are no representation of the ultra chasidic communities like Skver, Bobov etc.

That's exactly the point. They are catering to a specific crowd. If that crowd doesn't feel represented by statements the Agudah is making, then they're as useless as the chassidim have always claimed them to be. 

[stooges44]

Received via WhatsApp fwd

Another one:

Subject: ללמוד אני צריך

Shalom U’bracha,
I am sitting on a bus on the way to the rally in Washington & though the white hair on head & face attest to the fact that I have been around for a very long time, & in all that time I have been zoceh to sit at the feet of the Gedolei Hador.
And yet ,this time I am at a complete loss as to the purpose of this incredibly ill timed Kol Korei. If the Moetzes had signed a Kol korei for people to go & now upon seeing the released list of “inappropriate “ speakers, would definitely be correct in issuing this one not to participate.
However they never did publicly authorize this rally, so why come out now, at the 11th hour.
There are Gedolei Torah & Rosh Yeshivohs there, along with many yeshivohs & thousands of Bnei Torah already well on their way. What a “klop” to them.
Even more so, just on my bus alone, there are leaders of many Kehillos & of yeshivohs, there was a minyan & a Daf Yomi shiur in Bavli & Yerushalmi & almost every passenger is sitting with his Daf, mishnayos, or Chumash. It is for the most part a “torahadik “ atmosphere with people who gave up their entire day, just to be “מצטרף בצערן של ישראל״! The program is totally inconsequential (there is no Kol isha)& no one really even cares about it, but it’s to be here & cry out for אחינו בני ישראל הנתונים בצרה ובשביה & let the families of the hostages that are here, see that we are all here for them.
Instead of sitting & learning the last few hours , instead there is a free for all discussion where everyone is commenting (& worse)on this Kol korei & the level of bitul & ridicule is beyond the pale.
How much sincerity & mesiras  nefesh is all lost because of the ביזו תלמידי חכמים that is going on all over the world at this time. And of course, it’s always Agudah that bears the brunt of that ridicule.
As a lifelong Agudist who is very public about that fact, I am being besieged by all my co passengers asking me to explain the “timing” of this Kol korei, with tens of thousands of שומרי תורה ומצות already either well on their way, or already there. I have absolutely no words to respond to their questions &/or their mockery.
In addition, having worked these last few weeks with Rabbi Hauer & others to insure that there will be “religious context “ displayed, so we won’t have to go through what we did the last time around with the reform woman rabbi. It is supposed to be just a political & entertainment venue, that while is not “our” way, it would not violate any of our religious beliefs.
And nothing changed!
While our Gedolim need not my agreement, nor even my understanding, when I am forced to witness such ביזו תורה from our very own machane, it’s extremely disturbing & disappointing. I hope that I will be proven wrong, but I am afraid we just set back our Agudah efforts many years.
This is being sent not out of anger C”V
but out of extreme disappointment. I truly hold that the only possible response should be some type of “hasbarah” efforts in explaining what happened here.
Best regards & מצפים לישועה !

[incendia]

Received via WhatsApp fwd

I think a lot of what was said here could also apply to the yeshiva education debate

[jye]

There were many such emails that got sent to them. I know numerous people (of means) sent emails and have promised to stop funding the aguda et al. until there's a haskfa change.

Yes several people of means sent such threats to Agudah and to BMG. עשיר יענה עזות. They are directly attacking the Rabbonim as being out of touch and in a bubble because they know better about what’s best for Klal Yisroel and these Rabbonim just don’t get that this is the moment for achdus and they blew it. They would apparently like to have a bunch of spineless leaders who take a poll of their wealthiest supporters to know which way to go before they adopt any position. Yet the truth is that any leader who operates in that way is guaranteed to lose all respect.

These gedolim know full well what it means to be בצער at the מצב. To daven and beg Hashem for rachmanus. They know the value of achdus. (Anyone who thinks achdus trumps other considerations needs to learn the sugyos of Taharos and the seemingly far fetched gezeiros despite the enormous discord with the המון עם that it engendered.) And they are also aware of their achrayus to think of the ramifications for the Klal not one week ahead, but years ahead and take so many factors into account when doing so. To think that a bunch a jet setting guys who are swimming in olam hazeh (not to say that they aren’t wonderful baalei Chessed and good Jews) can sit around the figurative WhatsApp table and come to a better conclusion free from negius is beyond ludicrous.

My suggestion to these outspoken objectors would be to take the OU and incorporate their communities into it which would seem to be far easier than pulling Agudah and Lakewood to the left. However, whomever they join, they should do so with total hisbatlus to that particular Daas Torah אפילו אומרים לך על ימין שהוא שמאל. To simply “stack the court” with pseudo leaders who in fact answer to them and their money is extremely detrimental for כלל ישראל.

[JMHO]

Received via WhatsApp fwd

Dear Agudas Yisroel of America. I write to you as someone who considers himself an “Agudah Yid” even if I may be a few years behind in my membership dues! I grew up in a household where the Agudah and the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah reigned supreme. But it seems to be that we have reached a crossroads and that Agudah needs to make a decision. Fast.

It is no secret that Ultra Orthodoxy today is divided into several groups.

There are the Chassidim. Many major groups of Chassidim were anti Agudah from the start and the ones who weren’t don’t seem to be too eager to join right now. They are largely insular and prefer the leadership of their own rebbes. No rebbe of a major chassidus is part of Agudah. And so Agudah does not represent them nor should they attempt to.

There is “Lakewood” and the people under their influence. (Full disclosure, I live in Lakewood) The Lakewood yeshiva community is a right-leaning community. This means practically that the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbanim will sign bans against 24/6 (and Megillas Lester), will take strong positions against all new technology, always rule stringently in areas of women’s modesty, and – well, you get my point. Similar to the Chassidim, they are insular and do not have much interest in the outside world. To date, there is no major support, respect, or interest in Agudah from the Lakewood yeshiva community.

Then there are the others. These are the Ultra-Orthodox Jews from Brooklyn to Passaic to Monsey and from the tens of smaller communities across the country. They have a bona-fide yeshiva education but also look outward. They may have gone to college, or they may not have, but they certainly see value in a broader education and worldview. They also see themselves as part of a larger Jewish world, at home and abroad. They do not “support” the non-religious, but they are pained by the fact that so many Jews do not live a life of Torah. It seems to me that this is Agudas Yisroel’s constituency. To be fair, I think this was the dominant (non-Chassidic) view of Ultra Orthodoxy in American since World War 2, and it is the Lakewood Yeshiva crowd that has slowly moved in a new direction.

You may not want that or like that, but those are the facts. The core followers of the Agudah are the non-Chassidish, non-Lakewood communities.

And yet, your Moetzes Gedolie HaTorah is filled with people who are often at odds with your core constituency. No one is questioning the greatness of any member of the Moetzes (obviously), and there are legitimate positions on many issues, but members of an organization need and deserve to have a rabbinical board that share basic values and approaches with them. Why should the Lakewood yeshiva world have such a strong voice in the Moetzes of Agudah when the Lakewood yeshiva world is not even part of Agudah?

Now I know what you will tell me: “we listen to our Gedolim and accept their words even if we disagree”. But you and I both know that is false. To date there is no member of the Modern Orthodox world on your Moetzes despite there being many great Talmidei Chachamim among them. There is no member of Chabad on your board either. Clearly, there needs to be a baseline “hashkafa” that a Gadol has to have in order to be considered for the Moetzes. And so again, why is the Moetzes made up of so many members who are so at odds with the people who look to Agudah for guidance?

The rally in Washington D.C. this week is a perfect example of the problem. I am not concerned with the merits of either side, I simply want to take a look at the disconnect here.

Many Ultra-Orthodox communities across the country were eager to participate in this historic, and what they saw as vital, rally. And what was the position of the Agudah? First, they sent out a timid email with what appeared to be reluctant support for the rally. To an outsider it seemed that the Moetzes did not want to support the rally at all, but realized that opposing it would not sit will with their constituents and so they did not come out against it. Their weak email created a vacuum to allow the mess that was to follow.

The evening before the event a letter comes out signed by 4 member of the Moetzes (a 5th joined later) saying that it is assur to go to the rally. Never mind the cruelty of the November surprise, but to our point, the views of this Moetzes are simply worlds apart from the people who would be Agudah members. Even before the letter came out there were almost no buses from Lakewood going to the event. In in 5 Towns you were embarrassed to not be attending the rally and in Lakewood no one even knew about it! Many rabbanim from outside of Lakewood supported and joined the rally; are they not “cherad lidvar Hashem”?

There is a terrible divide between the ideology of the voice coming out of Agudah and the people who are its loyal adherents. This is leading to nothing less than the destruction of Agudah. Consider the fact that most people would struggle to find some positive communal initiative that Agudah has implemented for Klal Yisroel over the past few years. They are clearly handicapped by the many voices in the Moetzes and so they take the path of least resistance and do nothing. While their counterpart at the OU are engaged in community changing Torah projects and initiatives, Agudah is making grand conventions. With their AllDaf app OU is teaching millions of Yidden Shas, while the Agudah is making millions off of Yiden with a Siyum HaShas.

(Caveat – We are talking here about Agudah as a voice and guidance for Torah Jewry in America. There are a lot projects that Agudah is involved in, such as lobbying, legal/political initiatives that are invaluable.)

The Lakewood yeshiva world has adopted very different views then many of us. These are of course legitimte views, just as the Gedolim purporting them are tremendous people. If the Agudah wants to appeal to these voiced and embrace the rabbanim who speak for them- fine. Let us know and we will wish you well, and probably start a new organization to speak for us. I should warn you, however, that most of the “yeshivish” Rosh Yeshivas want nothing to do with Agudah and most of their followers have nothing but ridicule for you.

But if you want to continue to be the voice for what is still the mainstream Ultra-Orthodox in the country, it is time that real change comes to your institution. Those changes might be in who is allowed to be on the Moetzes, or maybe what types of questions need the Moetzes approval, or maybe who gets to have veto power, I don’t know. But I do know that you are currently in dangerous waters. You are being dominated by voices who are diametrically opposed to the deepest convictions of the only people who still support you. That situation cannot last.

Another one:
Subject: ללמוד אני צריך

Shalom U’bracha,
I am sitting on a bus on the way to the rally in Washington & though the white hair on head & face attest to the fact that I have been around for a very long time, & in all that time I have been zoceh to sit at the feet of the Gedolei Hador.
And yet ,this time I am at a complete loss as to the purpose of this incredibly ill timed Kol Korei. If the Moetzes had signed a Kol korei for people to go & now upon seeing the released list of “inappropriate “ speakers, would definitely be correct in issuing this one not to participate.
However they never did publicly authorize this rally, so why come out now, at the 11th hour.
There are Gedolei Torah & Rosh Yeshivohs there, along with many yeshivohs & thousands of Bnei Torah already well on their way. What a “klop” to them.
Even more so, just on my bus alone, there are leaders of many Kehillos & of yeshivohs, there was a minyan & a Daf Yomi shiur in Bavli & Yerushalmi & almost every passenger is sitting with his Daf, mishnayos, or Chumash. It is for the most part a “torahadik “ atmosphere with people who gave up their entire day, just to be “מצטרף בצערן של ישראל״! The program is totally inconsequential (there is no Kol isha)& no one really even cares about it, but it’s to be here & cry out for אחינו בני ישראל הנתונים בצרה ובשביה & let the families of the hostages that are here, see that we are all here for them.
Instead of sitting & learning the last few hours , instead there is a free for all discussion where everyone is commenting (& worse)on this Kol korei & the level of bitul & ridicule is beyond the pale.
How much sincerity & mesiras  nefesh is all lost because of the ביזו תלמידי חכמים that is going on all over the world at this time. And of course, it’s always Agudah that bears the brunt of that ridicule.
As a lifelong Agudist who is very public about that fact, I am being besieged by all my co passengers asking me to explain the “timing” of this Kol korei, with tens of thousands of שומרי תורה ומצות already either well on their way, or already there. I have absolutely no words to respond to their questions &/or their mockery.
In addition, having worked these last few weeks with Rabbi Hauer & others to insure that there will be “religious context “ displayed, so we won’t have to go through what we did the last time around with the reform woman rabbi. It is supposed to be just a political & entertainment venue, that while is not “our” way, it would not violate any of our religious beliefs.
And nothing changed!
While our Gedolim need not my agreement, nor even my understanding, when I am forced to witness such ביזו תורה from our very own machane, it’s extremely disturbing & disappointing. I hope that I will be proven wrong, but I am afraid we just set back our Agudah efforts many years.
This is being sent not out of anger C”V
but out of extreme disappointment. I truly hold that the only possible response should be some type of “hasbarah” efforts in explaining what happened here.

Wow, Chatgpt is working overtime this week!

[aygart]

Wow, Chatgpt is working overtime this week!

So important that I got Chat GPT to write a letter.

[flyingace]

The relevance of Agudah is the challenge, not the Moetzes. Agudah was founded by the Gedolim to give a voice to the Orthodox communities in Europe. It was always run by the Gedolim, not the constituents. What is stopping people from joining the OU or the RCA instead of Agudah, if that fits their hashkafa?

[yr]

I think a lot of what was said here could also apply to the yeshiva education debate

The Agudah was completely bamboozled by the chasidim to fight their fight.

Way way back when moster was just getting started, before any lawsuits , they were rightfully upset about not getting the education that the agudah type schools get. They had nothing with mainstream non chasidic schools that do give a basic education.  But Agudah convinced everyone that it's against us too, and then it did, somewhat.

One big scam,.

[Yehuda57]

Wow, Chatgpt is working overtime this week!

What a bizarre response to two well written, clear letters. You may not agree - I for one don't have an opinion in the broader sense as I'm neither a member of Agudah nor even know who their constituents are. But to dismiss something that couldn't have been written by chatGPT even if you tried 100 times and combined the best paragraphs from each effort just shows your aren't able or willing to seriously engage on the subject.

[AsherO]

Or people want to support the organizations that reflect where they are holding.

That email lays it out nicely. Just as the people arent the supporters of satmer and belz. If they feel Aguda doesnt represent them, why should they support.

But they’re writing it to Agudah and saying “represent me”. It’s not like they have an equivalent entity in size/influence to bail to, or they’d go there.

[AsherO]

That's exactly the point. They are catering to a specific crowd. If that crowd doesn't feel represented by statements the Agudah is making, then they're as useless as the chassidim have always claimed them to be. 

If you have a myopic enough view then everything on this planet that isn’t tailor fit to you is useless. The point of Agudah - as its name denotes - is to represent that which it considers values that unite (most of) its constituency. Obviously the more you drill down to nuance the less of the constituency might be represented.

[ushdadude]

The relevance of Agudah is the challenge, not the Moetzes. Agudah was founded by the Gedolim to give a voice to the Orthodox communities in Europe. It was always run by the Gedolim, not the constituents. What is stopping people from joining the OU or the RCA instead of Agudah, if that fits their hashkafa?

I think the bigger issue is that Agudah doesn't have a clear hashkafa anymore, even within the Moetzes.

[ushdadude]

Subject: ללמוד אני צריך

Shalom U’bracha,
I am sitting on a bus on the way to the rally in Washington & though the white hair on head & face attest to the fact that I have been around for a very long time, & in all that time I have been zoceh to sit at the feet of the Gedolei Hador.
And yet ,this time I am at a complete loss as to the purpose of this incredibly ill timed Kol Korei. If the Moetzes had signed a Kol korei for people to go & now upon seeing the released list of “inappropriate “ speakers, would definitely be correct in issuing this one not to participate.
However they never did publicly authorize this rally, so why come out now, at the 11th hour.
There are Gedolei Torah & Rosh Yeshivohs there, along with many yeshivohs & thousands of Bnei Torah already well on their way. What a “klop” to them.
Even more so, just on my bus alone, there are leaders of many Kehillos & of yeshivohs, there was a minyan & a Daf Yomi shiur in Bavli & Yerushalmi & almost every passenger is sitting with his Daf, mishnayos, or Chumash. It is for the most part a “torahadik “ atmosphere with people who gave up their entire day, just to be “מצטרף בצערן של ישראל״! The program is totally inconsequential (there is no Kol isha)& no one really even cares about it, but it’s to be here & cry out for אחינו בני ישראל הנתונים בצרה ובשביה & let the families of the hostages that are here, see that we are all here for them.
Instead of sitting & learning the last few hours , instead there is a free for all discussion where everyone is commenting (& worse)on this Kol korei & the level of bitul & ridicule is beyond the pale.
How much sincerity & mesiras  nefesh is all lost because of the ביזו תלמידי חכמים that is going on all over the world at this time. And of course, it’s always Agudah that bears the brunt of that ridicule.
As a lifelong Agudist who is very public about that fact, I am being besieged by all my co passengers asking me to explain the “timing” of this Kol korei, with tens of thousands of שומרי תורה ומצות already either well on their way, or already there. I have absolutely no words to respond to their questions &/or their mockery.
In addition, having worked these last few weeks with Rabbi Hauer & others to insure that there will be “religious context “ displayed, so we won’t have to go through what we did the last time around with the reform woman rabbi. It is supposed to be just a political & entertainment venue, that while is not “our” way, it would not violate any of our religious beliefs.
And nothing changed!
While our Gedolim need not my agreement, nor even my understanding, when I am forced to witness such ביזו תורה from our very own machane, it’s extremely disturbing & disappointing. I hope that I will be proven wrong, but I am afraid we just set back our Agudah efforts many years.
This is being sent not out of anger C”V
but out of extreme disappointment. I truly hold that the only possible response should be some type of “hasbarah” efforts in explaining what happened here.
Best regards & מצפים לישועה !

Wow, Chatgpt is working overtime this week!

I personally know the Rav (you probably know his name too) who wrote this letter.

[Pony]

Received via WhatsApp fwd

What the Agudah is probably very much aware of, is that the future of the litvish yeshivisha velt is the Lakewoos oilum as can be seen in the demographics of the yeshivos for children in Lakewood vs other communities. Like it or not they need the Lakewood crowd to be relevant, not the other way around.

[JMHO]

I personally know the Rav (you probably know his name too) who wrote this letter.

Who?

[Dan]

Anyone who rent to the rally know the incredible uplifting feeling of achdus yisrael that was there. Of people that put on tefilin for the first time in years and made passionate calls for G-d to end of suffering with the coming of moshiach. Our differences have been cast aside in this time of peril across the globe.

Tehilim was powerfully said, people were dressed tsniously but the sun still shined down powerfully on us, and everyone was on the same page with the same goal. We sang songs (with live male singers only) that inspired everyone. The kids that were there were all visibly proud to be Jews. People in the crowd were speaking about and even had signs looking to meet fellow Jews to date and marry, with talk of the attacks shifting their views on intermarriage.

It was something very special to be a part of. 1 out of every 30 American Jews came in from afar to have our desires made known to our politicians and to have our prayers storm the heavens. Never before has there been this many Jews together in this country and the feeling of unity was palpable.

I'm sure G-d was smiling down on his chosen people. And yes, that certainly includes those that didn't come due to their Rabonim advising them not to and those that couldn't come for other reasons as well.

A day to remember for a long time to come.

[JMHO]

Anyone who rent to the rally know the incredible uplifting feeling of achdus yisrael that was there. Of people that put on tefilin for the first time in years and made passionate calls for G-d to end of suffering with the coming of moshiach. Our differences have been cast aside in this time of peril across the globe.

Tehilim was powerfully said, people were dresses tsniously but the sun still shined down powerfully on us, and everyone was on the same page with the same goal. We sang songs (with live male singers only) that inspired everyone. The kids that were there were all visibly proud to be Jews. People in the crowd were speaking about and even had signs looking to meet fellow Jews to date and marry, with talk of the attacks shiting their views on intermarriage.

It was something very special to be a part of. 1 out of every 30 American Jews came in from afar to have our desires made known to our politicians and to have our prayers storm the heavens. Never before has there been this many Jews together in this country and the feeling of unity was palpable.

I'm sure G-d was smiling down on his chosen people. And yes, that certainly includes those that didn't come due to their Rabonim advising them not to and those that couldn't come for other reasons as well.

A day to remember for a long time to come.

Is there a way to like a post more than once?

[yelped]

Is there a way to like a post more than once?

How are you on DDF without knowing how?

[g_t]

Anyone who rent to the rally know the incredible uplifting feeling of achdus yisrael that was there. Of people that put on tefilin for the first time in years and made passionate calls for G-d to end of suffering with the coming of moshiach. Our differences have been cast aside in this time of peril across the globe.

Tehilim was powerfully said, people were dressed tsniously but the sun still shined down powerfully on us, and everyone was on the same page with the same goal. We sang songs (with live male singers only) that inspired everyone. The kids that were there were all visibly proud to be Jews. People in the crowd were speaking about and even had signs looking to meet fellow Jews to date and marry, with talk of the attacks shifting their views on intermarriage.

It was something very special to be a part of. 1 out of every 30 American Jews came in from afar to have our desires made known to our politicians and to have our prayers storm the heavens. Never before has there been this many Jews together in this country and the feeling of unity was palpable.

I'm sure G-d was smiling down on his chosen people. And yes, that certainly includes those that didn't come due to their Rabonim advising them not to and those that couldn't come for other reasons as well.

A day to remember for a long time to come.

And 1 out of every 1,100 Americans!

[Yehuda57]

I agree with all of that, I would add that I feel that this had nothing to do with the leadership and organization. We all came because we felt showing up would make a difference, not out of allegiance to any particular organization or in support of any particular program or speaker.

The frum turnout was huge. Tens of thousands, entire schools, really a huge amount of frum Jews. Add to that the number of college students that came with Chabad and other frum-led trips, the number is tremendous. Honestly, without Orthodox communities, the crowd would have been a joke.

Accordingly, the Federation made unprecedented accommodations for the frum communities. I think this is a huge opportunity to build on that. A more united front should be presented to the Federation so that we should not have to feel like grateful second-class citizens when they adjust a program to include us. We are the growing, building, living present and future of Judaism. A Federation that wants to remain relevant needs to acknowledge that and incorporate us accordingly.