Author Topic: Rally in Washington 11/14/23  (Read 63151 times)

Offline Afrages6

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2017
  • Posts: 936
  • Total likes: 418
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #660 on: November 16, 2023, 05:00:56 PM »
Yes several people of means sent such threats to Agudah and to BMG. עשיר יענה עזות. They are directly attacking the Rabbonim as being out of touch and in a bubble because they know better about what’s best for Klal Yisroel and these Rabbonim just don’t get that this is the moment for achdus and they blew it. They would apparently like to have a bunch of spineless leaders who take a poll of their wealthiest supporters to know which way to go before they adopt any position. Yet the truth is that any leader who operates in that way is guaranteed to lose all respect.

These gedolim know full well what it means to be בצער at the מצב. To daven and beg Hashem for rachmanus. They know the value of achdus. (Anyone who thinks achdus trumps other considerations needs to learn the sugyos of Taharos and the seemingly far fetched gezeiros despite the enormous discord with the המון עם that it engendered.) And they are also aware of their achrayus to think of the ramifications for the Klal not one week ahead, but years ahead and take so many factors into account when doing so. To think that a bunch a jet setting guys who are swimming in olam hazeh (not to say that they aren’t wonderful baalei Chessed and good Jews) can sit around the figurative WhatsApp table and come to a better conclusion free from negius is beyond ludicrous.

My suggestion to these outspoken objectors would be to take the OU and incorporate their communities into it which would seem to be far easier than pulling Agudah and Lakewood to the left. However, whomever they join, they should do so with total hisbatlus to that particular Daas Torah אפילו אומרים לך על ימין שהוא שמאל. To simply “stack the court” with pseudo leaders who in fact answer to them and their money is extremely detrimental for כלל ישראל.
Did you even read the letter? They aren’t criticizing the gedolim, they’re criticizing the agudah which is supposedly an organization that wants to be for all Jews, wants all of us to support their siyum hashas.. but yet the decisions are made by a narrow constituency of gedolim.

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6487
  • Total likes: 1035
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #661 on: November 16, 2023, 05:26:04 PM »
Did you even read the letter? They aren’t criticizing the gedolim, they’re criticizing the agudah which is supposedly an organization that wants to be for all Jews, wants all of us to support their siyum hashas.. but yet the decisions are made by a narrow constituency of gedolim.
To be fair, the kol korei wasn't from the agudah or even from the moetzes. it was from gedolim who are part of the moetzes. doesn't really change much though

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6487
  • Total likes: 1035
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #662 on: November 16, 2023, 05:43:53 PM »
Sincere question, are the people who didn't go to the rally because the rabbanim of the moetzes says not to, going to the agudah convention?

Offline jye

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 774
  • Total likes: 1239
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood NJ
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #663 on: November 16, 2023, 05:55:56 PM »
Did you even read the letter? They aren’t criticizing the gedolim, they’re criticizing the agudah which is supposedly an organization that wants to be for all Jews, wants all of us to support their siyum hashas.. but yet the decisions are made by a narrow constituency of gedolim.
Quote:” it is time that real change comes to your institution. Those changes might be in who is allowed to be on the Moetzes, or maybe what types of questions need the Moetzes approval, or maybe who gets to have veto power, I don’t know. But I do know that you are currently in dangerous waters. You are being dominated by voices who are diametrically opposed to the deepest convictions of the only people who still support you. That situation cannot last.”

There are several other letters sent that are even stronger, accusing a Rosh Yeshiva of doing nothing to show concern for אחינו בני ישראל and of losing his way and trampling on core beliefs etc. I won’t quote them.

This expectation that the moetzes shift to adopt the views of the constituents and especially the even more strident messages going around evoke the woman who wanted to cut the Sefer Torah because the new mantle she sewed for it wouldn’t fit. Something tells me that most of those grumbling won’t find themselves happier even if they would join or build an organization that aligns more with their views unless that organization continually  chases the shifting trends of public opinion to form its own.

Offline whacked1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 2607
  • Total likes: 544
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #664 on: November 16, 2023, 06:09:29 PM »
Quote:” it is time that real change comes to your institution. Those changes might be in who is allowed to be on the Moetzes, or maybe what types of questions need the Moetzes approval, or maybe who gets to have veto power, I don’t know. But I do know that you are currently in dangerous waters. You are being dominated by voices who are diametrically opposed to the deepest convictions of the only people who still support you. That situation cannot last.”

There are several other letters sent that are even stronger, accusing a Rosh Yeshiva of doing nothing to show concern for אחינו בני ישראל and of losing his way and trampling on core beliefs etc. I won’t quote them.

This expectation that the moetzes shift to adopt the views of the constituents and especially the even more strident messages going around evoke the woman who wanted to cut the Sefer Torah because the new mantle she sewed for it wouldn’t fit. Something tells me that most of those grumbling won’t find themselves happier even if they would join or build an organization that aligns more with their views unless that organization continually  chases the shifting trends of public opinion to form its own.
Are you a member of the agudah? Were you a member in the past?

Offline jye

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 774
  • Total likes: 1239
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood NJ
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #665 on: November 16, 2023, 06:59:20 PM »
Are you a member of the agudah? Were you a member in the past?
I have participated in many Agudah functions over the years and do try to make it to (part of) the convention most years and contribute as well but I am not a card carrying member if that’s what you are asking.

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3398
  • Total likes: 3904
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #666 on: November 16, 2023, 07:45:57 PM »
the agudah which is supposedly an organization that wants to be for all Jews

Which is why the Agudah is bound to such issues and criticisms from all sides like we see now, an organization for all Jews is practically impossible. It was this way from the very beginning, nothing new here. The ideology and worldviews of German Jews, Russian Jews, and Hungarian Jews were all very different and caused major conflict. The Rashab of Lubavitch writes extensively on that in many letters, like the long letter here, covering all of that very clearly;

https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=31691#p=273&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=

Offline Jellybelly

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2016
  • Posts: 1206
  • Total likes: 1048
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #667 on: November 16, 2023, 08:07:15 PM »
Which is why the Agudah is bound to such issues and criticisms from all sides like we see now, an organization for all Jews is practically impossible. It was this way from the very beginning, nothing new here. The ideology and worldviews of German Jews, Russian Jews, and Hungarian Jews were all very different and caused major conflict. The Rashab of Lubavitch writes extensively on that in many letters, like the long letter here, covering all of that very clearly;

https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=31691#p=273&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=

Was Agudah really made for all Jews?
It sounds nice, but highly doubt it’s true
For all Torah Jews sounds more realistic

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 19148
  • Total likes: 15301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #668 on: November 16, 2023, 08:07:37 PM »
In the case of the bus company, the Civil rights act does not allow them to discriminate because of religion.
Maybe, but that wasn't the question that I was replying to.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3398
  • Total likes: 3904
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #669 on: November 16, 2023, 08:09:09 PM »
Was Agudah really made for all Jews?
It sounds nice, but highly doubt it’s true
For all Torah Jews sounds more realistic

Of course Torah Jews, was using OP's term

Offline Jellybelly

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2016
  • Posts: 1206
  • Total likes: 1048
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #670 on: November 16, 2023, 08:14:05 PM »
maybe we can make an Agudah-lite for our generation

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 3398
  • Total likes: 3904
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #671 on: November 16, 2023, 08:24:23 PM »
maybe we can make an Agudah-lite for our generation

It was actually the Agudah-lite who endorsed parvely a Federation called pro-Israel rally.

Online mevinyavin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2022
  • Posts: 2286
  • Total likes: 2703
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Laptop help/deal request template
  • Location: Yerushalayim
  • Programs: Windows 10 and 11 Home, Word/Excel/Publisher 2021, Wordweb, McGill English Dictionary of Rhyme, VLC, Torat Emet, 7-Zip, Lightshot, Calibre, FDM, FreeFileSync, Teracopy, Handbreak, Lightshot
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #672 on: November 17, 2023, 03:53:24 AM »
Is there a way to like a post more than once?
Of course there is. Cross-post it in a different thread. (But it doesn't work for you, only for everyone else.)
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline Pony

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2022
  • Posts: 72
  • Total likes: 267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Toms River
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #673 on: November 17, 2023, 09:43:34 AM »
Did you even read the letter? They aren’t criticizing the gedolim, they’re criticizing the agudah which is supposedly an organization that wants to be for all Jews, wants all of us to support their siyum hashas.. but yet the decisions are made by a narrow constituency of gedolim.

Who are the letter writers upset at? The baali batim that run the Aguda? They didn't issue a kol korei. Are they upset at he members of the moetzes? They have every right in the world to express their opinions in a non Aguda kol korei.

It seems like they feel blindsided by what was "supported" by the Aguda was then come out against by some members of the moetzes. But that is just simply being oblivious to how these things work. Any casual observer was able to see that there were major objections within the moetzes on this issue. The Aguda issued a vey lukewarm email that they are informing people about this rally and a day later one of the members of the moetzes publicly said that its treif to go. So people need to use their sechel and realize that there is more than meets the eye then the vague email. I personally was unsure about what to do. My emotions said to go but my intellect said that a Federation run rally is loi zu haderech. I very much appreciated the kol korei which removed any doubt from my mind as to what I should be doing.     

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2514
  • Total likes: 2370
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #674 on: November 17, 2023, 09:56:13 AM »
Interesting point here
Quote
It's complicated. I had the merit to get a car ride together with a Rov who is part of the Agudah leadership a few years ago (not from the actual Mo'etzes, but the Agudah has a roster of renowned community Rabbonim who are involved in an influential way). This was shortly after the Novominsker Rebbe was nifter and he explained to me that the Agudah was finding itself increasingly less relevant. Whereas up until the 90s and early 2000s there were many shuls and Yidden who affiliated with the Agudah, due to the mass migration to Lakewood, that was quickly dying down. The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva made it clear to the Agudah many years ago that they do not want Agudah shuls opening up in Lakewood, they felt it would detract from the flavor of the community they were trying to build. (Obviously by now Lakewood is so big that it's a hefkervelt and everyone can do whatever the heck they want, but they probably still do not want to tamper with the protocol).

This was creating a huge issue, where the largest and fastest growing community in the US felt no affinity to the Agudah, whereas places that had previously been bastions of Agudah supporters were slowly thinning out. Therefore, in a bid to pander to a wider base, the Agudah took the bold step of adding a whole bunch of leading Lakewood Rabbonim. If the desired effect was that the Lakewood community should become 'Agudists' en masse, then this gambit did not accomplish its goal. But I believe that it did lead people from the Lakewood community to take statements and positions from the Mo'etzes Gedolei Hatorah more seriously. So in place of an organization that sees itself as THE voice for Chareidi Jewry in the US being completely alienated and estranged from the largest frum community in the US, they did manage to regain some relevance for themselves.

However, as the Agudah is finding out, it's going to be extremely hard to try to appeal to the old-time New York baalebatishe Agudist and the new generation of Lakewood Yeshiva community at the same time.

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6487
  • Total likes: 1035
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #675 on: November 17, 2023, 09:56:17 AM »
Who are the letter writers upset at? The baali batim that run the Aguda? They didn't issue a kol korei. Are they upset at he members of the moetzes? They have every right in the world to express their opinions in a non Aguda kol korei.

It seems like they feel blindsided by what was "supported" by the Aguda was then come out against by some members of the moetzes. But that is just simply being oblivious to how these things work. Any casual observer was able to see that there were major objections within the moetzes on this issue. The Aguda issued a vey lukewarm email that they are informing people about this rally and a day later one of the members of the moetzes publicly said that its treif to go. So people need to use their sechel and realize that there is more than meets the eye then the vague email. I personally was unsure about what to do. My emotions said to go but my intellect said that a Federation run rally is loi zu haderech. I very much appreciated the kol korei which removed any doubt from my mind as to what I should be doing.   


Generally it's important for a person to have a personal Rav they can ask shailos to

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6487
  • Total likes: 1035
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #676 on: November 17, 2023, 09:58:41 AM »
Interesting point here


I guess a good question to ask is what is Lakewood nowadays. But that's for a different thread.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 19148
  • Total likes: 15301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #677 on: November 17, 2023, 09:59:33 AM »
Did you even read the letter? They aren’t criticizing the gedolim, they’re criticizing the agudah which is supposedly an organization that wants to be for all Jews, wants all of us to support their siyum hashas.. but yet the decisions are made by a narrow constituency of gedolim.

Yeah they are only telling them to fire them from the Moeatzes.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Pony

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2022
  • Posts: 72
  • Total likes: 267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Toms River
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #678 on: November 17, 2023, 10:05:55 AM »

Generally it's important for a person to have a personal Rav they can ask shailos to

Absolutely. I actually tried calling my rosh yeshiva and couldn't get through. I asked one of his prominent talmidim what he thinks would say and he told me he can't imagine he would endorse this. But I was still on the fence because I heard reasons both ways. For me, it was good to have that kol korei come out to clear that up in my mind.

Offline ushdadude

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 6487
  • Total likes: 1035
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #679 on: November 17, 2023, 10:24:44 AM »
Absolutely. I actually tried calling my rosh yeshiva and couldn't get through. I asked one of his prominent talmidim what he thinks would say and he told me he can't imagine he would endorse this. But I was still on the fence because I heard reasons both ways. For me, it was good to have that kol korei come out to clear that up in my mind.
You're lucky that you heard about it before you started driving. Most people heard about it after they were well on their way (or were never planning on going)