Author Topic: Rally in Washington 11/14/23  (Read 58782 times)

Offline flyingace

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #200 on: November 10, 2023, 12:08:43 PM »
As long as you have a direct line with G-d to know his reasoning, I have some more questions I need answers to.
You yourself are pointing out the arrogance. That is the midda we need to work on in this Galus. See Michtav Me'eliyahu mentioned above. Not claiming any direct line to G-d at all.

Offline aygart

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #201 on: November 10, 2023, 12:10:51 PM »
1. Who said that you have to the in favor of this one?

Interesting that R' Moshe felt it important enough to march to in Washington during the March of the Rabbis' in 1943. But yeah, we know better.

Which is where this conversation started.
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Offline yelped

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #202 on: November 10, 2023, 12:12:28 PM »
Question at hand is what the wise way to work on this is.
I don't see anyone saying we shouldn't get involved in politics in Lakewood which arouses much more hate, which wouldn't have been generated otherwise, as opposed to here, where it is generated no matter what, and by showing a huge, peaceful march, it will encourage the silent majority in America to not let hateful gangsters take over the country and public discourse.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #203 on: November 10, 2023, 12:18:18 PM »
I don't see anyone saying we shouldn't get involved in politics in Lakewood which arouses much more hate, which wouldn't have been generated otherwise, as opposed to here, where it is generated no matter what, and by showing a huge, peaceful march, it will encourage the silent majority in America to not let hateful gangsters take over the country and public discourse.
Apparently Rabbi Sorotzkin feels that the Muslim fervor is a more acute physical danger.

Offline Dan

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #204 on: November 10, 2023, 12:18:30 PM »
You yourself are pointing out the arrogance. That is the midda we need to work on in this Galus. See Michtav Me'eliyahu mentioned above. Not claiming any direct line to G-d at all.
Israeli arrogance is infamous, but I'd never say that 1,400 Jews were punished for it.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #205 on: November 10, 2023, 12:20:11 PM »
Which is where this conversation started.
I didn't read it that way.
He didn't say you have to be in favor. He said before you start calling this treif or a yaharog v'al yavir or whatever else, realize that there's halachic precedent to rally during times of sakana.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline flyingace

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #206 on: November 10, 2023, 12:22:11 PM »
Israeli arrogance is infamous, but I'd never say that 1,400 Jews were punished for it.
I didn't say that, either. Don't think anyone else did, either.





Offline aygart

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #207 on: November 10, 2023, 12:25:19 PM »
Apparently Rabbi Sorotzkin feels that the Muslim fervor is a more acute physical danger.

I think it is much more than this. The goal of the Rabbi's March was a very clear agenda. We were able to very clearly articulate what exactly we wanted them to do. We wanted them to help stop the killing. What are we trying to accomplish here? To make a show of force?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #208 on: November 10, 2023, 12:25:51 PM »
I didn't say that, either. Don't think anyone else did, either.

Can you flesh out what you mean by this?

Precisely- to show the falseness of כחי ועוצם ידי!
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #209 on: November 10, 2023, 12:28:44 PM »
I think it is much more than this. The goal of the Rabbi's March was a very clear agenda. We were able to very clearly articulate what exactly we wanted them to do. We wanted them to help stop the killing. What are we trying to accomplish here? To make a show of force?
I assume we are trying to accomplish a show of support so the US government takes note that itís material support to help Israel is appreciated by many.

Offline aygart

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #210 on: November 10, 2023, 12:32:18 PM »
I assume we are trying to accomplish a show of support so the US government takes note that itís material support to help Israel is appreciated by many.

This is much more fuzzy.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline flyingace

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #211 on: November 10, 2023, 12:35:03 PM »
Can you flesh out what you mean by this?

I will try. I am neither Rav nor talmid chacham...We are obligated to learn from the events around us. If we see the fallout of arrogance and כחי ועוצם ידי it becomes clear that it is that middah that we need to uproot. That does not explain anything about why the Kedoshim were killed. The mefarshim say that he is called Yishmael because he will make us call out to Hashem and He will listen to us. The atrocities,too, are the hand of Hashem. That doesn't mean I know WHY they happened or WHY those people and not others.
I do believe that current events are moving us to a point in history that is unprecedented and that I hope and pray we get it right this time! (See Meshech Chochmah and Michtav Eliyahu mentioned above)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 12:38:41 PM by flyingace »

Offline aygart

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #212 on: November 10, 2023, 12:39:48 PM »
I think it is much more than this. The goal of the Rabbi's March was a very clear agenda. We were able to very clearly articulate what exactly we wanted them to do. We wanted them to help stop the killing. What are we trying to accomplish here? To make a show of force?

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32226&st=&pgnum=50&hilite=
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #213 on: November 10, 2023, 12:41:27 PM »
Interesting, need to read up on that, do you have a link?

It's in your very own link! look at page 5. It was the Zionist movement who fought it, as the plight of the Jews wasn't their top priority.
 
@flyingace see page 3 and on
https://agudah.org/the-jewish-observer-vol-10-no-10-may-1975tamuz-5735/


Whatever risks there were are incomparable to whatís going on now.

The whole comparison is ridiculous. The march back then was an outcry to the American government who literally turned a blind eye to the murdering of millions of Jews. Today BH America is the greatest defender of Jewish lives.

I wish this march too great success. I hope a million people show up to counter the insane pro terrorist sentiments that popped out everywhere. The reason why the Chassidish and Yeshivish communities will never be part of it though is (aside of Gog I'Magog which is really above our paygrade) because we don't partake in marches that has the name "March for Israel" on it, a march where waving the Israeli flag is the focal point, the very flag Reb Avigdor Miller so clearly describes what it symbolizes here.

"The Israeli flag is a symbol of Zionism. And Zionism is a principle that means something. Zionism is not just some political movement; it represents the principle that in order to be a Jew all you need is to subscribe to the idea of a Jewish state. You donít need any Torah. You know you can be an atheist and you can still be a very good Zionist! And thatís where we come in and we say, thatís the chillul Hashem!

When the blue and white flag is raised, thatís what itís saying. That flag is saying that this is the purpose, this is the ideal, this is the justification, and all other things are unimportant. And we say itís not so! Itís the flag that is the chillul Hashem! Because we have only one flag and that is the Torah. We are a nation because of the Torah. Without the Torah we are nothing but gypsies, weíre a polyglot, and weíre halfbreeds; we have all types of people mixed into our nation. But thereís only one thing that makes Jews Jews. And that it that they are loyal to Hashem and His Torah.

And therefore a flag that proclaims that the Torah is not necessary to be a Jew Ė that you can be an oichel treifos just like the leaders of the State of Israel Ė except for Begin; Begin eats kosher, I think Ė so you can eat treifos they say, you can be a michaleil Shabbos, and work on Yom Kippur, and be an eishes-ishnik, you can commit adultery, itís nothing to them. You have homosexuals too, who are diehard Zionists.  "

Offline Sammy82

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2023, 12:51:13 PM »
It's in your very own link! look at page 5. It was the Zionist movement who fought it, as the plight of the Jews wasn't their top priority.
 
The whole comparison is ridiculous. The march back then was an outcry to the American government who literally turned a blind eye to the murdering of millions of Jews. Today BH America is the greatest defender of Jewish lives.

I wish this march too great success. I hope a million people show up to counter the insane pro terrorist sentiments that popped out everywhere. The reason why the Chassidish and Yeshivish communities will never be part of it though is (aside of Gog I'Magog which is really above our paygrade) because we don't partake in marches that has the name "March for Israel" on it, a march where waving the Israeli flag is the focal point, the very flag Reb Avigdor Miller so clearly describes what it symbolizes here.

"The Israeli flag is a symbol of Zionism. And Zionism is a principle that means something. Zionism is not just some political movement; it represents the principle that in order to be a Jew all you need is to subscribe to the idea of a Jewish state. You donít need any Torah. You know you can be an atheist and you can still be a very good Zionist! And thatís where we come in and we say, thatís the chillul Hashem!

When the blue and white flag is raised, thatís what itís saying. That flag is saying that this is the purpose, this is the ideal, this is the justification, and all other things are unimportant. And we say itís not so! Itís the flag that is the chillul Hashem! Because we have only one flag and that is the Torah. We are a nation because of the Torah. Without the Torah we are nothing but gypsies, weíre a polyglot, and weíre halfbreeds; we have all types of people mixed into our nation. But thereís only one thing that makes Jews Jews. And that it that they are loyal to Hashem and His Torah.

And therefore a flag that proclaims that the Torah is not necessary to be a Jew Ė that you can be an oichel treifos just like the leaders of the State of Israel Ė except for Begin; Begin eats kosher, I think Ė so you can eat treifos they say, you can be a michaleil Shabbos, and work on Yom Kippur, and be an eishes-ishnik, you can commit adultery, itís nothing to them. You have homosexuals too, who are diehard Zionists.  "
1. Wrong, there are plenty of yeshivas going. And even those that aren't actively going (which elementary school is going to load up buses and travel hours and then take responsibility for hundreds of kids.....?), many are fine with students and staff going on their own (both of my kid's schools sent out emails that say such. As does the school which my wife works for). If they were against it, as they are with many other things, they would say so.
2. We already know you're feelings about the current status of Eretz Yourself from the other chat. No need to pollute this chat too.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 01:40:12 PM by Sammy82 »

Offline imayid2

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2023, 12:51:53 PM »
2. We already know you're feelings about the current status of Eretz Yourself from the other chat. No need to polite this chat too.
Derogatory snide remarks about pollution isnít beneficial to the quality of the conversation.

Offline incendia

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2023, 12:53:18 PM »
The reason why the Chassidish and Yeshivish communities will never be part of it

Citation needed. I saw that chefetz chiam in queens said they we were sending buses and they would reimburse guys that were car pooling. They also said that kollenlnik should take their wives if possible. There are buses from Monsey and Lakewood.



When the blue and white flag is raised, thatís what itís saying. That flag is saying that this is the purpose, this is the ideal, this is the justification, and all other things are unimportant. And we say itís not so! Itís the flag that is the chillul Hashem!


I saw a vid recently of Lipa at a wedding holding up an Israeli flag cake and saying they were specifically doing that to make a kiddush Hashem


Offline EliJelly

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2023, 12:54:12 PM »
Derogatory snide remarks about pollution isnít beneficial to the quality of the conversation.

I wonder how this conversation was still not moved out of this thread, but after 3 pages of discussing it, it was my post that polluted it ::)
Truth hurts.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #218 on: November 10, 2023, 12:55:45 PM »

I saw a vid recently of Lipa at a wedding holding up an Israeli flag cake and saying they were specifically doing that to make a kiddush Hashem

I'm sure Rav Avigdor wasn't aware that Lipa has a different opinion.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Rally in Washington 11/14/23
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2023, 12:56:15 PM »
I saw a vid recently of Lipa at a wedding holding up an Israeli flag cake and saying they were specifically doing that to make a kiddush Hashem
Lol
We have a viewpoint by Rav Avigdor Miller countered by Lipa.
Love it!