Gaza Tunnels

[Moshe Green]

I'm part of the people that walk out when tehilim is said. Sometimes I stay it depends on my mood at the time. I don't want to say tehilim out of rote so I walk out. I have my own personal short tefila in mind most of the time.

I don't feel the need anymore to daven specifically for the war since in my mind I feel like Israel already contained the war so I don't feel it as much. Nothing to do with the soldiers beliefs, I wholeheartedly consider them equal as anyone else.

Even in the beginning of the war I didn't feel the need to cut down or make any sort of kabbalos. The only thing I did feel was important was davening. So that's what I did.

Is it wrong? Possibly. I'm writing it how it is by me.

I really hear you. I am also like you are. The external pressure makes it very hard for me to do "what everyone else is doing". It turns me off.

What i do is that while i will try to go along with the flow (not to be Poresh), i attempt to disconnect with what i am doing to release the pressure. Then i can do my own things, whether it's davening in my own way or anything else.

[cmey]

I'm part of the people that walk out when tehilim is said. Sometimes I stay it depends on my mood at the time. I don't want to say tehilim out of rote so I walk out. I have my own personal short tefila in mind most of the time.

I don't feel the need anymore to daven specifically for the war since in my mind I feel like Israel already contained the war so I don't feel it as much. Nothing to do with the soldiers beliefs, I wholeheartedly consider them equal as anyone else.

Even in the beginning of the war I didn't feel the need to cut down or make any sort of kabbalos. The only thing I did feel was important was davening. So that's what I did.

Is it wrong? Possibly. I'm writing it how it is by me.

IIRC Reb Gershon Ribner and others have said that someone who can’t feel it and isn’t holding by making Kabbalos shouldn’t be pressured to make them just to go through the motions. I think the starting point is to try to feel the pain of a huge tzibbur of Klal Yisrael so that we are motivated to do SOMETHING different. That was the spirit of my OP above.

For some it may mean doing the same vacation and just being a little quieter about it in public. For others it may mean cutting a little something out. Maybe some would like to take 5 minutes daily to think about what the tzibbur is going through and then say a fervent kapittel Tehillim. I don’t think there is a one size fits all reaction, but I do think there is a common struggle to keep the sense of נשיאות עול on our minds in a real way. The practical personal expression of that sense will flow from there.

I am somewhat perplexed by your description of the war being contained. The hostages are in extreme danger and our initial sense of relief that so few of our soldiers are dying in the war has given way to the anguish of seeing the toll continue to rise every day, as so many of those soldiers dancing to the euphoric music (which did provide amazing chizuk) come back to crying and tears. Isn’t that what the war is about? If the seminary girls can buy sufganiyot in Uri’s does that define the war being contained?

How many of our brothers and sisters are homeless, some who are not only displaced but don’t have any homes to go home to? Picture your kids not only being uprooted from their home, but not having any school to go to or any structure in their day. There’s a real war. There are deaths. There are refugees. They aren’t Ukrainian folks who have a tenuous connection to Judaism through their great grandparents (who also deserve sympathy). They are real families just like me and you.

Please please don’t walk out on the Tehillim that is being said. I totally get the feeling of aversion to the rote in which it is being said, but in the end of the day it is being said. To turn our back and walk out on it is itself a very big statement.

[jew]

I like to say
"Think of the closest relative or friend  who has r" l passed away and imagine that you were told 5 minutes of tehillim a day could have saved them..
Imagine your physical brother or child was actually in Aza now,
Imagine your mother was one of the hostages r"l
This is serious stuff and your little actions etc can make a major difference!

Not using the word "imagine" as slang/cliche but actually sit for 60 seconds and think "pretend", would you still walk out on tehillim? Would you still "suffice" with a small private prayer ? Would you still act as of nothing happening and "all contained"?
(Young ) Yidden are poshut dying every single day  , hundreds of thousands suffering for lack of homes and injured/killed relatives... I would be quite embarrassed to walk out on tehillim and quite embarrassed to " announce" it here...
Hence , why I respect your honesty

[Jellybelly]

I'm part of the people that walk out when tehilim is said. Sometimes I stay it depends on my mood at the time. I don't want to say tehilim out of rote so I walk out. I have my own personal short tefila in mind most of the time.

I don't feel the need anymore to daven specifically for the war since in my mind I feel like Israel already contained the war so I don't feel it as much. Nothing to do with the soldiers beliefs, I wholeheartedly consider them equal as anyone else.

Even in the beginning of the war I didn't feel the need to cut down or make any sort of kabbalos. The only thing I did feel was important was davening. So that's what I did.

Is it wrong? Possibly. I'm writing it how it is by me.

Need to institute a SAD button on DDF

[stooges44]

I'm part of the people that walk out when tehilim is said. Sometimes I stay it depends on my mood at the time. I don't want to say tehilim out of rote so I walk out. I have my own personal short tefila in mind most of the time.

I don't feel the need anymore to daven specifically for the war since in my mind I feel like Israel already contained the war so I don't feel it as much. Nothing to do with the soldiers beliefs, I wholeheartedly consider them equal as anyone else.

Even in the beginning of the war I didn't feel the need to cut down or make any sort of kabbalos. The only thing I did feel was important was davening. So that's what I did.

Is it wrong? Possibly. I'm writing it how it is by me.

Once we're being honest IMO, I think walking out, or at least being seen by others walking out, is far worse then saying things by rote. Don't say it if it has no meaning but don't be so brazen to walk out.

[Definitions2]

Once we're being honest IMO, I think walking out, or at least being seen by others walking out, is far worse then saying things by rote. Don't say it if it has no meaning but don't be so brazen to walk out.

Please please don’t walk out on the Tehillim that is being said. I totally get the feeling of aversion to the rote in which it is being said, but in the end of the day it is being said. To turn our back and walk out on it is itself a very big statement.

The situation where the minyan is doesn't it make it look brazen at all. Nobody knows who's coming or going (not exactly, but it's not something that is very noticeable).

[aygart]

The situation where the minyan is doesn't it make it look brazen at all. Nobody knows who's coming or going (not exactly, but it's not something that is very noticeable).

In halacha it is considered very chamur to leave

[Jellybelly]

In halacha it is considered very chamur to leave

Is tehillim part of Davening?

[aygart]

Is tehillim part of Davening?

It is more chamur because it is considered separating oneself from the tefilah of the tzibbur

[AsherO]

Not commenting on the Tehillim, only on this part:

in my mind I feel like Israel already contained the war

I can’t argue with your mind or feelings, but factually this is far from the case. Both in the macro there is still a significant eis tzara, if not in Gaza then certainly from Lebanon and beyond. In the micro, any Israeli soldier in a combat zone in Gaza is in orders of magnitude more danger than anyone sitting in a shul or at home davening for them.

[imayid2]

In halacha it is considered very chamur to leave

It is more chamur because it is considered separating oneself from the tefilah of the tzibbur

Source?

[imayid2]

Not commenting on the Tehillim, only on this part:

I can’t argue with your mind or feelings, but factually this is far from the case. Both in the macro there is still a significant eis tzara, if not in Gaza then certainly from Lebanon and beyond. In the micro, any Israeli soldier in a combat zone in Gaza is in orders of magnitude more danger than anyone sitting in a shul or at home davening for them.

He probably meant that there isn't an existential threat to Israel from Hamas at this point.

[AsherO]

He probably meant that there isn't an existential threat to Israel from Hamas at this point.

I don’t think there was any chance Hamas could threaten Israel’s very existence, especially with the iron dome. The threat on Israel’s northern border is much bigger, especially while the IDF is operating in Gaza.

[imayid2]

The threat on Israel’s northern border is much bigger, especially while the IDF is operating in Gaza.

Ok so its sort of hard to qualify if that's makes it an עת צרה. I mean, they are always there. Its more the danger the Israeli soldiers in Gaza are facing that's on everyone's mind I think. Not sure how the rubric of עת צרה works. I guess anytime a large group of yidden are in immediate danger should qualify.

[cmey]

Ok so its sort of hard to qualify if that's makes it an עת צרה. I mean, they are always there. Its more the danger the Israeli soldiers in Gaza are facing that's on everyone's mind I think. Not sure how the rubric of עת צרה works. I guess anytime a large group of yidden are in immediate danger should qualify.

The ongoing danger in Eretz Yisrael is a direct המשך of צרה that is likely the largest number of Jews murdered in Eretz Yisrael in close to 1000 years. I can’t imagine anyone wouldn’t consider October 7th to be a צרת הרבים. To put it in perspective, the Kehilla of Worms, the one we cry over every year in the קינות on תשעה באב numbered around 800 murdered.

I don’t think it makes sense to isolate parts of this tragedy and consider the צרה to have ended with the massacre, and the ongoing war on its own to be too minor on its own to be considered an עת צרה. Were the last few Jews to die in the concentration camps not considered to be part of the עת צרה because they were few in number?

Regardless, the צרה is clearly ongoing in the sense that 250,000 yidden are currently displaced from their homes, dozens are being killed על קידוש השם every fortnight and over 10,000 injured are (hopefully) in the process of healing. Untold numbers of others have ongoing psychological trauma. I would find it hard to believe that this is not a צרת רבים about which the Gemara Taanis says:
בזמן שצִבור שרוי בצער – אל יאמר אדם אלך לביתי ואוכל ואשתה ושלום עליך נפשי. ואם עושה כן – עליו הכתוב אומר 'והנה ששון ושמחה, הרוג בקר ושחוט צאן, אכול בשר ושתות יין, אכול ושתו כי מחר נמות'. מה כתיב בתריה? – 'ונגלה באזני ה' צבאות אם יכופר העון הזה לכם עד תמותון'... אלא יצער אדם עם הצִבור, שכן מצינו במשה רבינו שציער עצמו עם הצִבור... וכל המצער עצמו עם הצִבור – זוכה ורואה בנחמת צִבור.

[imayid2]

The ongoing danger in Eretz Yisrael is a direct המשך of צרה that is likely the largest number of Jews murdered in Eretz Yisrael in close to 1000 years.

I don’t think it makes sense to isolate parts of this tragedy and consider the צרה to have ended with the massacre, and the ongoing war on its own to be too minor on its own to be considered an עת צרה. Were the last few Jews to die in the concentration camps not considered to be part of the עת צרה because they were few in number?

I don’t agree and the analogy is totally flawed. The attackers of October 7th have been repelled and no longer present an imminent danger. (Though the hostages are perhaps an עת צרה qualifier) The current operation is an offensive to stamp them out totally.

dozens are being killed על קידוש השם

This idea is not clear at all

Regardless, the צרה is clearly ongoing in the sense that 250,000 yidden are currently displaced from their homes, dozens are being killed על קידוש השם every fortnight and over 10,000 injured are (hopefully) in the process of healing. Untold numbers of others have ongoing psychological trauma. I would find it hard to believe that this is not a צרת רבים about which the Gemara Taanis says:
בזמן שצִבור שרוי בצער – אל יאמר אדם אלך לביתי ואוכל ואשתה ושלום עליך נפשי. ואם עושה כן – עליו הכתוב אומר 'והנה ששון ושמחה, הרוג בקר ושחוט צאן, אכול בשר ושתות יין, אכול ושתו כי מחר נמות'. מה כתיב בתריה? – 'ונגלה באזני ה' צבאות אם יכופר העון הזה לכם עד תמותון'... אלא יצער אדם עם הצִבור, שכן מצינו במשה רבינו שציער עצמו עם הצִבור... וכל המצער עצמו עם הצִבור – זוכה ורואה בנחמת צִבור.

Like I said there are many in acute danger. If there was a permanent ceasefire you’d still be saying that? For how long?

[aygart]

Source?

I saw more explicit than this, but the jist is it being included in 574:5 how the MB adds some words to MA based on PMG

[imayid2]

I would find it hard to believe that this is not a צרת רבים about which the Gemara Taanis says:
בזמן שצִבור שרוי בצער – אל יאמר אדם אלך לביתי ואוכל ואשתה ושלום עליך נפשי. ואם עושה כן – עליו הכתוב אומר 'והנה ששון ושמחה, הרוג בקר ושחוט צאן, אכול בשר ושתות יין, אכול ושתו כי מחר נמות'. מה כתיב בתריה? – 'ונגלה באזני ה' צבאות אם יכופר העון הזה לכם עד תמותון'... אלא יצער אדם עם הצִבור, שכן מצינו במשה רבינו שציער עצמו עם הצִבור... וכל המצער עצמו עם הצִבור – זוכה ורואה בנחמת צִבור.

I’ve been wondering about this.
When there was a cholera outbreak in Europe did that Gemara apply to the Jewish community of America?

[davidd75]

Was this meant for me?

yes that was his way of getting our attention.  You may disagree with the way he choose to do it but it seems to have worked. His intentions I think we would all agree were in the right direction  I definitely didn't think it deserved a dislike comment.

[aygart]

I’ve been wondering about this.
When there was a cholera outbreak in Europe did that Gemara apply to the Jewish community of America?

Regarding tashmish it does not according to the butchacher in240