Author Topic: Gaza Tunnels  (Read 10084 times)

Offline cmey

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2023, 11:27:48 PM »
Sorry to be blunt but this was never about איסור תשמיש. Go right ahead. Even in an overwater villa in the Maldives. Even with lie flat first class seating to get there, and fine cuisine besides. It is simply about making an effort to incorporate the realization that hundreds of thousands of yidden are suffering and can use our tefillos and our נשיאת עול each in our own way.

 Suppose it doesn’t technically hit the level of the גמרא. That’s hardly the point. If we are to coldly tally the victims, geographic proximity, and other technicalities to decide whether or not we should flip the נשיאת עול switch we have completely missed the boat.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2023, 11:36:11 PM »
Sorry to be blunt but this was never about איסור תשמיש.
No one said it was.
It is simply about making an effort to incorporate the realization that hundreds of thousands of yidden are suffering and can use our tefillos and our נשיאת עול each in our own way.

 Suppose it doesn’t technically hit the level of the גמרא. That’s hardly the point. If we are to coldly tally the victims, geographic proximity, and other technicalities to decide whether or not we should flip the נשיאת עול switch we have completely missed the boat.
Pretty sure everyone’s in the same boat on that.

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2023, 11:38:30 PM »
yes that was his way of getting our attention.  You may disagree with the way he choose to do it but it seems to have worked. His intentions I think we would all agree were in the right direction  I definitely didn't think it deserved a dislike comment.
I am personally against belittling a tragedy by making jokes or making your own agenda out of others' suffering.

Clickbait works great, no one doubts that. Doesn't mean people like it, quite the contrary people often dislike it...

Trains were packed, the showers were stuffy, the furnaces were filled with babies, I mean c'mon this is not a way to speak about Jewish suffering, I don't care what point you are making.

This:

He thought you were disliking the shiur, but you are disliking the post above it.
& this:
Here, ftfy.

Went from a completely distasteful post to a useful and thought-provoking one.
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Offline Just A Jew

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2023, 11:40:21 PM »
Sorry to be blunt but this was never about איסור תשמיש. Go right ahead. Even in an overwater villa in the Maldives. Even with lie flat first class seating to get there, and fine cuisine besides. It is simply about making an effort to incorporate the realization that hundreds of thousands of yidden are suffering and can use our tefillos and our נשיאת עול each in our own way.

 Suppose it doesn’t technically hit the level of the גמרא. That’s hardly the point. If we are to coldly tally the victims, geographic proximity, and other technicalities to decide whether or not we should flip the נשיאת עול switch we have completely missed the boat.

This whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can appreciate the sentiment, and it's been brought up on DDF more than once over the last 2.5 months, but I don't agree with the presentation here. You're arbitrarily imposing your feelings on others with no basis. It's tzaras rabim, but not to the degree where there's precedented guidance, so people should use your benchmarks for how to react to your feelings? I know that's not your intention, and some thoughtful points have been made, but every time I open up this travel thread to the Gaza tunnels judging people who react to the current situation in a way some decided isn't socially acceptable, I get more and more turned off.
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Offline cmey

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2023, 11:46:37 PM »
This whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can appreciate the sentiment, and it's been brought up on DDF more than once over the last 2.5 months, but I don't agree with the presentation here. You're arbitrarily imposing your feelings on others with no basis. It's tzaras rabim, but not to the degree where there's precedented guidance, so people should use your benchmarks for how to react to your feelings? I know that's not your intention, and some thoughtful points have been made, but every time I open up this travel thread to the Gaza tunnels judging people who react to the current situation in a way some decided isn't socially acceptable, I get more and more turned off.
The only judgement I see upthread is commenting on the idea of walking out on a minyan saying Tehillim, and maybe the factual observation of the war being wrapped up. Can you elaborate on where you feel benchmarks are being imposed on others?

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2023, 11:52:46 PM »


Clickbait works. But that doesn't mean it's appropriate. It has been called out here on DDF when tzedaka organizations do it, even if it's for a great cause, and that is no different than it's being used to guilt people into making lifestyle changes. What would be wrong with just posting Rabbi Benders message, which I think everyone agrees with on principle, and leaving it at that?

Offline Just A Jew

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2023, 11:58:57 PM »
The only judgement I see upthread is commenting on the idea of walking out on a minyan saying Tehillim, and maybe the factual observation of the war being wrapped up. Can you elaborate on where you feel benchmarks are being imposed on others?

I'm honestly struggling to answer your question... You're right, in that the only outright judgment in this thread was about walking out during tehillim. I think it's the underlying implied judgment of having this thread in the travel board, with horrible pictures right on top. This isn't the place for this discussion. I know the point was to get people planning vacations to think a little, but it's like posting pictures of starving children right outside of a restaurant. It feel like guilt tripping and shaming, and it doesn't sit right. That initial feeling was compounded by the judgment on how someone is personally handling not connecting with the extra tehillim. I guess that's what led to my post.
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Offline davidd75

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2023, 12:01:56 AM »
I am personally against belittling a tragedy by making jokes or making your own agenda out of others' suffering.

Clickbait works great, no one doubts that. Doesn't mean people like it, quite the contrary people often dislike it...

Trains were packed, the showers were stuffy, the furnaces were filled with babies, I mean c'mon this is not a way to speak about Jewish suffering, I don't care what point you are making.

This:
& this:

I didnt see it as making jokes or belittling the tragedy.  Some can see it quite the other way by make such statements you make the tragedy more relevant to others.  Sometimes we have to really shock ourselves to get us to think about others.  It sometimes only hit homes and makes us implement real changes when we see pictures and comments like these.  How many of us are moved to change unless it truly stirs our soul etc...?  The other ways you quoted are also good but does not mean his OP was bad.  To each his own. 

I would rather judge favorably and see his attempt to get us all involved in the suffering of Klal Israel rather than use terms such "clickbait" and "personal agenda". 

I would rather use terms such as looking for ways for us to be making meaningful changes in our lives to be truly לחלוק את העול עם חברינו

Offline cmey

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2023, 12:40:33 AM »
I know the point was to get people planning vacations to think a little, but it's like posting pictures of starving children right outside of a restaurant. It feel like guilt tripping and shaming, and it doesn't sit right.
I sure hope not because although I’m not sure yet, depending on the timing I might very well end up being one of those planning a trip and that would be pretty hypocritical.

Offline jew

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2023, 02:09:55 AM »
I didnt see it as making jokes or belittling the tragedy.  Some can see it quite the other way by make such statements you make the tragedy more relevant to others.  Sometimes we have to really shock ourselves to get us to think about others.  It sometimes only hit homes and makes us implement real changes when we see pictures and comments like these.  How many of us are moved to change unless it truly stirs our soul etc...?  The other ways you quoted are also good but does not mean his OP was bad.  To each his own. 

I would rather judge favorably and see his attempt to get us all involved in the suffering of Klal Israel rather than use terms such "clickbait" and "personal agenda". 

I would rather use terms such as looking for ways for us to be making meaningful changes in our lives to be truly לחלוק את העול עם חברינו

Agree!

Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2023, 02:41:29 AM »
I am personally against belittling a tragedy by making jokes or making your own agenda out of others' suffering.

But he still has a point. This forum clearly shows waining interest in the war. The thread with updates has slowed down majorly and You would not have started a thread about getting on a random flight for an unplanned vacation two days after simchas tora.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=135097.msg2776321#msg2776321  Things like this looked a bit overboard to me.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 02:51:34 AM by rbs-g1.5 »

Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2023, 02:44:15 AM »
Ok so its sort of hard to qualify if that's makes it an עת צרה. I mean, they are always there. Its more the danger the Israeli soldiers in Gaza are facing that's on everyone's mind I think. Not sure how the rubric of עת צרה works. I guess anytime a large group of yidden are in immediate danger should qualify.
I have been thinking about this re saying tehillim after davening in shul on shabbos (as many do here in E.Y.) What is the geder for when this is apropriate?

Offline JMHO

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2023, 06:27:46 AM »
I have been thinking about this re saying tehillim after davening in shul on shabbos (as many do here in E.Y.) What is the geder for when this is apropriate?
Ask your Rav?

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2023, 08:34:28 AM »


But he still has a point. This forum clearly shows waning interest in the war.

This is correct (for many/most people)and I think most people would agree with you. But not everything with shock value is proper and appropriate. There are ways of reminding people of the eis tzara many others are facing without resorting to what most consider sleazy tactics when used in other situations. I'm not saying not to describe what the hostages are going through to encourage people to daven, but there is an aidele way of doing it that isn't "in your face"

Offline cmey

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2023, 09:15:32 AM »
I think perhaps the sentiment from the Gemara Bava Basra (at least the concept) sums it up: Life goes on, and it must,  but we make small changes in our routine so that it is always on our mind.

(Paraphrased)
“When the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed a second time, there was an increase in the number of perushim among the Jews, who decided to not eat meat and to not drink wine. Rabbi Yehoshua joined them to discuss their practice. He said to them: My children, for what reason do you not eat meat and do you not drink wine? They said to him: Shall we eat meat, from which korbanos are sacrificed upon the מזבח , and now the מזבח has ceased to exist? Shall we drink wine, which is poured as a נסכים?

Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: If so, we will not eat bread either, since the מנחות that were offered upon the מזבח have ceased. They replied: You are correct. It is possible to subsist with produce. He said to them: We will not eat produce either, since the bringing of the ביכורים have ceased. They replied: You are correct. We will no longer eat the produce of the שבעת המינים from which the ביכורים were brought, as it is possible to subsist with other produce. He said to them: If so, we will not drink water, since the ניסוך המים has ceased. They were silent, as they realized that they could not survive without water.

Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: My children, come, and I will tell you how we should act. To not mourn at all is impossible, as the decree was already issued and the בית המקדש has been destroyed. But to mourn excessively as you are doing is also impossible, as the חכמים do not issue a decree upon the public unless a majority of the public is able to abide by it….Rather, this is what the חכמים said: a person must leave over a small amount of his house without plaster to remember the חורבן. One making a סעודה should leave over a minor dish that he doesn’t serve זכר לחורבן. A woman who puts on jewelry should leave over one item that she doesn’t wear זכר לחורבן etc.”

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2023, 09:19:44 AM »

This is correct (for many/most people)and I think most people would agree with you. But not everything with shock value is proper and appropriate. There are ways of reminding people of the eis tzara many others are facing without resorting to what most consider sleazy tactics when used in other situations. I'm not saying not to describe what the hostages are going through to encourage people to daven, but there is an aidele way of doing it that isn't "in your face"
Oh come one... anyone saw this coming when he saw it was a trip report...

It was a cute way of asking people to be considerate of their brothers and sisters that are still suffering in EY...

Offline AsherO

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2023, 11:09:14 AM »
Ok so its sort of hard to qualify if that's makes it an עת צרה. I mean, they are always there. Its more the danger the Israeli soldiers in Gaza are facing that's on everyone's mind I think. Not sure how the rubric of עת צרה works. I guess anytime a large group of yidden are in immediate danger should qualify.

He was talking about his own feelings and an existential threat to Israel, so I was commenting on that specifically. My point was comparing Oct. 7th to now within those narrow parameters.
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Online jj1000

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2023, 11:13:45 AM »
But he still has a point.
If you read what I wrote to imply he doesn't have a point...you misread what I wrote.

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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2023, 11:18:11 AM »
Having been in yeshivas with weekly a mussar shmooze as a child and adult as well as yeshivas with chassidus and farbrangens, I have the benefit of seeing both approaches to tragedies.

I think the supporters of a trip report like that are in general fans of a firey mussar shmooze and that is likely where the disconnect is coming in.

And while like I said, I dislike it, on a personal level, I can respect others love for how it stirs up their own emotions.

Bottom line, if I really disliked it enough I would have deleted it, but I love the different approaches and how DDF is a place for many people from different backgrounds have a space and opportunity to express themselves and their feelings in a place that others can choose to agree or disagree through generally healthy dialog.
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Re: Gaza Tunnels
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2023, 11:21:39 AM »
I love the different approaches and how DDF is a place for many people from different backgrounds have a space and opportunity to express themselves and their feelings in a place that others can choose to agree or disagree through generally healthy dialog.
+1
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