Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel

[mevinyavin]

Also, @yfr bachur , can you please explain the connection between what I said (regarding those who want to leave EY so they can be together with family for YT) and you speaking about the Chashivus of EY...

Did you make a neder that you won't be able to leave EY your entire life. It definitely sounded that way, the way you wrote that you know you may never see your parents again in your life (very strong words in my opinion...)

I guess my response should be more explicit. I'm pretty much in the same boat as him:

We can't afford the trip. Period. We came here to stay and we knew we may not see our families again because we can't afford to visit. When I first came to EY, as a bochur, on the advice of my Rebbe, I had to pay for it myself because we didn't have the money to do it. When we got married and came to EY, my parents had not been here in 45 (father) and 38 (mother) years, because even though they loved EY, they felt that they couldn't splurge on it as long as they owned tuition. My shver has never been even though his kids had lived here for many years. I had no expectations of seeing them again. (Key word is expectations - I hoped circumstances would allow it but had no reason to believe those reasons would have to happen.)
Lemaaseh they did splurge and come when a brother got engaged here, and they started coming every few years once a second brother married an American Israeli. Barring a few (subsidized or paid for) trips my wife and I have made singly without the kids, my family has not been back in the states to visit my siblings and my wife's siblings since 2016 (a brother-in-law's chasunah, also subsidized). As I have posted in the past, my parents keep begging us to visit, and my siblings too, but the costs have been prohibitive so far and it hasn't happened yet.
Neither my parents nor my in-laws are in the best of health. Doesn't change my ability to visit them, particularly as a family.
The words that triggered me were, as I commented before,

many months

.
I hope you understand now... 

[lover of truth]

You're mixing things a bit. I'll start by pointing to the Bnei Brak crowd (specifically, the neighborhoods that border Ramat Gan). A lot of the מותרות you see are not limited to Yerushalyim at all, and in fact, in Bnei Brak it has a far more Olam Hazeh "taste" to all these new imported lifestyles. This comes from the fact that the Israeli (and by extension, Chareidi) middle class has grown significantly since the mid 2000's, and the population has never had it so good economically (I'm talking up to Oct. 7 for now).

Many Chutznikim like to convince themselves (from a place of haughtiness) that it is their imported dollars/pounds/euros that keep the local economy going, but this really isn't the case. BMW and Rolex don't operate in Israel for a few of the richer kollel guys. Maybe a meatboard or sourdough guy in Ramat Eshkol do, but Israelis are not needing your shopping in Romema or Mamila to keep the economy going, and not even Sukkos time either.

Yes, the Zionists are to blame for desensitizing us to the Mekomos Hakdoshim, which they defile at every opportunity they have. Whether it's the Kosel, Meron, or simply everywhere they find an old burial site, it is the non-religious Zionists who caused this קרירורת, with time, over time. If it now takes efforts by ehrilce Yidden like R' Meilich Biderman or Naftali Kempe to bring back some Ta'am in that, it means that we still yearn for it, but the fault is not ours.

+1000
funnny how americans dont know lifestyle of average young ISRAELI avreichim
I lived in bnei brak and most young couples the wives work in hi-tec, accounting etc. raking in huge salaries and their husbands dont even get kolel check
many of them are left with a couple thousand extra at the end of the month and can afford tommy hilfiger(yes thats whats popular, i know) and nice vactions to europe
and yes the few pennies that americans spend a year in israel is not running the economy. these families are
not to mention lots of chareidim that work mainly sefardim and chasidim that also have expendable capital

[Dan]

Aren't y'all dual citizens? Can't play the credit card game?

[pointer]

Aren't y'all dual citizens? Can't play the credit card game?

CC points = cash. If they struggle paying for flights, they should use CC points to get cash.

[cmey]

+1000
funnny how americans dont know lifestyle of average young ISRAELI avreichim
I lived in bnei brak and most young couples the wives work in hi-tec, accounting etc. raking in huge salaries and their husbands dont even get kolel check
many of them are left with a couple thousand extra at the end of the month and can afford tommy hilfiger(yes thats whats popular, i know) and nice vactions to europe
and yes the few pennies that americans spend a year in israel is not running the economy. these families are
not to mention lots of chareidim that work mainly sefardim and chasidim that also have expendable capital

Had no idea. Does this mean the Shidduchim scene is kind of like the US where girls that aren’t working in high paying fields and don’t come from wealth don’t get looked at?

[yfr bachur]

+1000
funnny how americans dont know lifestyle of average young ISRAELI avreichim
I lived in bnei brak and most young couples the wives work in hi-tec, accounting etc. raking in huge salaries and their husbands dont even get kolel check
many of them are left with a couple thousand extra at the end of the month and can afford tommy hilfiger(yes thats whats popular, i know) and nice vactions to europe
and yes the few pennies that americans spend a year in israel is not running the economy. these families are
not to mention lots of chareidim that work mainly sefardim and chasidim that also have expendable capital

'

Um... Dont use one data point about your friends and neighbors in one neighborhood/city and generalise about the average Israeli Avreich. It's like living in westgate and using that to generalise about all charedidim across the US

I know plenty, and while some are as you said, others are living in 30 meter apts with three kids.
Graduates of certain yeshivos davka look for girls with hightech/accounting/other high paying degrees, while others davka look for girls who wont want a unsustainable standard of living.

I had/have what to say about native Israeli chareid/dati society losing their appreciation for the zchus to live here - but its not really so relevant for this forum.

[Dan]

CC points = cash. If they struggle paying for flights, they should use CC points to get cash.

Only if your posek allows you to break the terms of programs to sell your miles.

[etech0]

Only if your posek allows you to break the terms of programs to sell your miles.

or use cashback cards instead

[yfr bachur]

or we use the points to subsidise major purchases or save them for a rainy day when we will need to get to the states pronto

Theres a limit to the amount of MS you can do when you are not located in the states, and are paid in shekel...

[Dan]

or use cashback cards instead

Talking about signup bonuses of course, not everyday spending.

[cmey]

Only if your posek allows you to break the terms of programs to sell your miles.

Amex Chase Citi and a bunch of others can redeem for cash if you set them up right. Yes you will miss out on full redemption value and completely miss out on United,Southwest,  LH, JetBlue, AA, Alaska, Hilton, Delta and a bunch more that aren’t strictly cash back. But that leaves a ton of cards that are with a spouse and a few grown kids who are citizens you should be able to get a drawer full of cards and pull in a pretty decent monthly income cashing out alone, if that’s your psak.

[Dan]

Amex Chase Citi and a bunch of others can redeem for cash if you set them up right. Yes you will miss out on full redemption value and completely miss out on United,Southwest,  LH, JetBlue, AA, Alaska, Hilton, Delta and a bunch more that aren’t strictly cash back. But that leaves a ton of cards that are with a spouse and a few grown kids who are citizens you should be able to get a drawer full of cards and pull in a pretty decent monthly income cashing out alone, if that’s your psak.

¿Por qué no los dos?

[cmey]

Talking about signup bonuses of course, not everyday spending.

Unless you are willing/ able to MS ( probably mostly a no go if your posek doesn’t even allow selling miles) , or have a large amount of cc spend via a business, everyday spending is mostly a waste. You should be able to hit 10% back on spending by allocating it solely to signup bonuses.

[cmey]

¿Por qué no los dos?

If you have available spend or your posek is ok with MS. Eventually you will start getting throttled by 5/24, or your credit pulls if business so maxing out all cash bonuses especially since you will want to go for personal as well, and then going for miles on top of that isn’t always so feasible.

[HudZ]

I guess my response should be more explicit. I'm pretty much in the same boat as him:

We can't afford the trip. Period. We came here to stay and we knew we may not see our families again because we can't afford to visit. When I first came to EY, as a bochur, on the advice of my Rebbe, I had to pay for it myself because we didn't have the money to do it. When we got married and came to EY, my parents had not been here in 45 (father) and 38 (mother) years, because even though they loved EY, they felt that they couldn't splurge on it as long as they owned tuition. My shver has never been even though his kids had lived here for many years. I had no expectations of seeing them again. (Key word is expectations - I hoped circumstances would allow it but had no reason to believe those reasons would have to happen.)
Lemaaseh they did splurge and come when a brother got engaged here, and they started coming every few years once a second brother married an American Israeli. Barring a few (subsidized or paid for) trips my wife and I have made singly without the kids, my family has not been back in the states to visit my siblings and my wife's siblings since 2016 (a brother-in-law's chasunah, also subsidized). As I have posted in the past, my parents keep begging us to visit, and my siblings too, but the costs have been prohibitive so far and it hasn't happened yet.
Neither my parents nor my in-laws are in the best of health. Doesn't change my ability to visit them, particularly as a family.
The words that triggered me were, as I commented before, .
I hope you understand now... 

Ok... Understood.

I hope I didn't offend you in any way. But that's not how I understood what you said (yfr) at first, as I was just replying to someone who said it's ironic to say 'stuck in Israel'. And I was just saying that there are many ppl who didn't see their family in months, since if their going in for Pesach, they most probably went in for Sukkos as well...

[HudZ]

What I'm still not understanding is what my post had to do with your losing appreciation thread?
Especially with the understanding that you were triggered by the many months part, not what I was saying.

[rbs-g1.5]

I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote until you got to “Talmidei Chachamim on Rechov Press”. Let’s not kid ourselves. These guys have no monopoly over the authenticity of learning and leadership, spending 10 years on 4 lines in a Rishon. I’d rather see you write “The Mezumanim Beki’im of Rechov Yirmiyahu”, even with all the political connotations. IYKYK.

Thanks for reminding us of the inherent weakness of online forums as opposed to real life social circles where you can learn with whom it is worthwhile to have an intelligent conversation. Sometimes we can fool ourselves into thinking that this is a good place to discuss hashkafa. We can even invest in a thought out post to discuss something. Then somebody comes along and diverts the whole conversation to a fourth grade level mudsling.A bunch of other people clueless to the culture being discussed chime in and there you go ,the whole point is lost. @yfr bachur clearly invested in a beutifully written piece and you just wrecked the conversation with your immature and hatefull comment.(No I didn't learn there) There is so much more to argue about your post (spending 10 years on 4 lines in a Rishon. HUGH? which yeshiva ?)  but I just won't stoop so low. Anyways thanks for the reminder that I really don't belong here.

[lover of truth]

'

Um... Dont use one data point about your friends and neighbors in one neighborhood/city and generalise about the average Israeli Avreich. It's like living in westgate and using that to generalise about all charedidim across the US

I know plenty, and while some are as you said, others are living in 30 meter apts with three kids.
Graduates of certain yeshivos davka look for girls with hightech/accounting/other high paying degrees, while others davka look for girls who wont want a unsustainable standard of living.

I had/have what to say about native Israeli chareid/dati society losing their appreciation for the zchus to live here - but its not really so relevant for this forum.

i am REFFERING to young couples getting married in past few years and yes FACT out of 400 girls in wolf seminary in bnei brak 175 went to hi tech course 60 accounting or so and not even one ganenet. It was first time ever that there are no ganenets.
You are a diiferent age bracket and those who move out of yerushalaim bnei brak are those who dont work in offices generally as there aren't many jobs in periphery

[HudZ]

All I will say, is that a few of the posts written today were extremely uncalled for. Lashon Hara. (Probably Motzi Shem Ra) and should be deleted.

[aygart]

Thanks for reminding us of the inherent weakness of online forums as opposed to real life social circles where you can learn with whom it is worthwhile to have an intelligent conversation. Sometimes we can fool ourselves into thinking that this is a good place to discuss hashkafa. We can even invest in a thought out post to discuss something. Then somebody comes along and diverts the whole conversation to a fourth grade level mudsling.A bunch of other people clueless to the culture being discussed chime in and there you go ,the whole point is lost. @yfr bachur clearly invested in a beutifully written piece and you just wrecked the conversation with your immature and hatefull comment.(No I didn't learn there) There is so much more to argue about your post (spending 10 years on 4 lines in a Rishon. HUGH? which yeshiva ?)  but I just won't stoop so low. Anyways thanks for the reminder that I really don't belong here.

לצנות א' דוחה