Author Topic: TIL - Today I Learned  (Read 55191 times)

Offline Euclid

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Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #181 on: December 26, 2024, 09:14:57 PM »

Online EliJelly

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #182 on: December 26, 2024, 09:29:48 PM »

How convincing  ::)

https://seforimblog.com/2024/12/april_fools_dreidel/

The story behind may or may not be true. I don't see any real source for that. Could be it was a game adopted later, I have no problem with that. Nevertheless it has become a minhag to play with on chanukkah and that dates back at least 2-3 centuries.

https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2022/12/the-truth-behind-the-hanukkah-dreidel-metafolklore-play-and-spin/

Very poor job there

Online EliJelly

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Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #184 on: December 26, 2024, 11:28:10 PM »
The story behind may or may not be true. I don't see any real source for that.
AKA a fairy tale. Full stop!!
I have no problem with that.
Happy we are on the same page :)

Online aygart

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #185 on: December 26, 2024, 11:30:37 PM »
AKA a fairy tale. Full stop!!Happy we are on the same page :)
Legend and fairy tale are not the same thing
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online EliJelly

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #186 on: December 27, 2024, 12:06:28 AM »
AKA a fairy tale. Full stop!!Happy we are on the same page :)

We might be on the same page on whether the story behind it and sourcing it to back then is a legend but I'm definitely not on the same page once the Bnei Yissaschar gave remazim for the minhag.

Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #187 on: December 27, 2024, 12:17:20 AM »
Legend and fairy tale are not the same thing
Right!!

That is why I wrote fairy tale, because legend would be an inaccurate description for a story that popped into being fairly recently.

Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #188 on: December 27, 2024, 12:18:02 AM »
but I'm definitely not on the same page once the Bnei Yissaschar gave remazim for the minhag.
Not on the same page as whom?

Online EliJelly

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #189 on: December 27, 2024, 12:48:56 AM »

Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #190 on: December 27, 2024, 12:57:49 AM »
You
I didn't address that aspect as far as I can tell (not saying it's not true :) )

Online EliJelly

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #191 on: December 27, 2024, 01:03:36 AM »
I didn't address that aspect as far as I can tell (not saying it's not true :) )

Your underlying excitement about the fairy tale gave it away. :)
I'd put it in the same category as shlissel challah.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2024, 01:12:26 AM by EliJelly »

Offline AYHG

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #192 on: December 27, 2024, 02:08:38 AM »
I'm not entirely convinced by these articles.
While it's certainly possible that this particular game developed its association with Chanukah more recently, it does seem a bit of a stretch to claim that one prewar American rabbi, with whom the vast majority of frum Jewry is completely unfamiliar with, invented and printed a brand new origin story that so rapidly became the given explanation taught everywhere. This account about the sourcing of the accepted dreidel story is certainly more of a stretch than a group of children convincing Greek soldiers that a gathering of children was for play rather than for study, which for some reason the article writer deemed too implausible.

Moreover, even if the article's assertion is true and the association of the dreidel with Chanukah really is this recent, all this naysaying about the invented symbolisms associated with it after the fact (and the fact that we are so uncomfortable with it) is just a reflection of our narrow Hellenistic/rationalist perception of world events and history. In this view, everything must have one linear explanation, cause and effect. There is no meaning to the reality/event/practice beyond its initial physical impetus.

Perhaps the worldview we fought for can be found within this blurry dreidel origin story itself: If sincere jews have this well established minhag, it must be that G-d wills it, and if G-d wills it, it must have inherent layers of meaning. The meaning may be completely divorced from its linear historical origin story because G-d's plan for the world isn't tied to one linear explanation, rather world events are orchestrated as they are for a possible infinity if reasons.

Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #193 on: December 27, 2024, 08:13:26 AM »
I'm not entirely convinced by these articles.
While it's certainly possible that this particular game developed its association with Chanukah more recently, it does seem a bit of a stretch to claim that one prewar American rabbi, with whom the vast majority of frum Jewry is completely unfamiliar with, invented and printed a brand new origin story that so rapidly became the given explanation taught everywhere. This account about the sourcing of the accepted dreidel story is certainly more of a stretch than a group of children convincing Greek soldiers that a gathering of children was for play rather than for study, which for some reason the article writer deemed too implausible.
It doesn’t really matter how exactly the story percolated, not does it necessarily mean he invented it. It by all means was probably something going around, and it’s likely that other more influential sources were more responsible for its spread.

What is crucial, is that we have no record of it before about 100 years ago. None of the contemporary sources, the later rabbinic sources, the many medrashay Chazal, and much much later chassidic Rebbes who gave meaning to its Chanukah association, were aware of it.

That means one thing and one thing only. It is baloney.

Inability to acknowledge this severely undermines and devaluates our rich and well sourced traditions. It also has nothing to do with whether or not the whole Chanukah association is legitimate and is a separate discussion.

Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #194 on: December 27, 2024, 08:26:46 AM »
Perhaps the worldview we fought for can be found within this blurry dreidel origin story itself: If sincere jews have this well established minhag, it must be that G-d wills it, and if G-d wills it, it must have inherent layers of meaning. The meaning may be completely divorced from its linear historical origin story because G-d's plan for the world isn't tied to one linear explanation, rather world events are orchestrated as they are for a possible infinity if reasons.
This is a beautiful sentiment but it doesn’t hold water. Hashem set up this world with bechira and doesn’t override it through His will. To claim that everything sincere Jews do has all sorts of Kabbalist meaning to it by very virtue of them doing it is patently absurd. See the כאלה thread for more information.

Online EliJelly

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #195 on: December 27, 2024, 10:25:43 AM »
This is a beautiful sentiment but it doesn’t hold water. Hashem set up this world with bechira and doesn’t override it through His will. To claim that everything sincere Jews do has all sorts of Kabbalist meaning to it by very virtue of them doing it is patently absurd. See the כאלה thread for more information.

So you can't differentiate between a meshugaas and dreidel? The chassam sofer played with a dreidel one night chanukah, he didn't sing along כאלה, I'm sure the people around didn't dare doing it in his presence. They didn't say the same about playing kvitlach either. The Bnei Yissaschar and others deemed this a minhag yisroel so either it was adopted and elevated for those reasons or they attributed those for the divine purpose why it made its way into klal yisroel. This notion is definitely not new, your comprehension of it or not notwithstanding. 

Online aygart

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #196 on: December 27, 2024, 10:33:37 AM »

That means one thing and one thing only. It is baloney.


You seem very quick here and other places to brush things off a baloney based on some articles that you only heard about that day. I strongly recommend against being so rash.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online zh cohen

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #197 on: December 27, 2024, 11:40:02 AM »
It by all means was probably something going around, and it’s likely that other more influential sources were more responsible for its spread.

So you agree that the story was told before the first time it was published. Why are you so certain that this oral tradition does not go back to the time of Chanukah?

ETA: This is a general problem with the chokrim. They assume that if they do not know of written record of something, it
is baloney.

Online aygart

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #198 on: December 27, 2024, 01:31:45 PM »
It does seem that it is also found among sfardim but I don't have it confirmed that it came from Halab yet
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: TIL - Today I Learned
« Reply #199 on: December 27, 2024, 02:44:50 PM »
So you can't differentiate between a meshugaas and dreidel? The chassam sofer played with a dreidel one night chanukah, he didn't sing along כאלה, I'm sure the people around didn't dare doing it in his presence. They didn't say the same about playing kvitlach either. The Bnei Yissaschar and others deemed this a minhag yisroel so either it was adopted and elevated for those reasons or they attributed those for the divine purpose why it made its way into klal yisroel. This notion is definitely not new, your comprehension of it or not notwithstanding.
I’m not following.

He presented a theological argument based on the fact that sincere Jews do this so there needs to be deep meaning to it because clearly Hashem “willed it”. I explained why in general I don’t think that is very compelling.

I have not said anything about this specific minhag in this conversation, besides commenting on the origin story recently attached to it. Not sure why you keep reverting there.