Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 47576 times)

Offline dirah

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The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« on: January 30, 2012, 06:33:02 PM »
Unreal that they still serve cholov stam.  Hopefully COs caterer wins out.
Unreal that OU requires all bread rolls served on airlines to be Hamotzi,
(and the card that comes with the meal tactfully suggest, "if washing is inconvenient on the plane, why don't you enjoy the breadroll at home", like, really!)
but don't require Cholov Yisroel.
Just goes to show that financial considerations trump Halachic ones.
[For those that don't get it, Mezonos CAN be made on Mezonos breadrolls if a number of criteria are met, whereas Cholov "Stam" is complete nada for those who don't accept Reb Moshe's Psak.]
</vent>
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 11:32:22 AM by Dan »

Offline Ergel

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 06:36:02 PM »
I think you should publicly ask mechila for casting such aspersions on a very halachikally grounded organization
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline dirah

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 06:38:22 PM »
I think you should publicly ask mechila for casting such aspersions on a very halachikally grounded organization
Why don't you respond to the objection?

Offline Side incomer

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 06:46:52 PM »
I think you should publicly ask mechila for casting such aspersions on a very halachikally grounded organization
He said nothing wrong. We all know that in todays days business is way before halacha L"A. Every person working in the food industry can confirm that.
Side income is the most solid income... בדוק ומנוסה

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 06:56:02 PM »
Unreal that OU requires all bread rolls served on airlines to be Hamotzi,
(and the card that comes with the meal tactfully suggest, "if washing is inconvenient on the plane, why don't you enjoy the breadroll at home", like, really!)
but don't require Cholov Yisroel.
Just goes to show that financial considerations trump Halachic ones.
[For those that don't get it, Mezonos CAN be made on Mezonos breadrolls if a number of criteria are met, whereas Cholov "Stam" is complete nada for those who don't accept Reb Moshe's Psak.]
</vent>
CO roll was mezonos and the breakfast was cholov yisroel.
Hopefully the CO caterer wins out over UA.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 07:27:45 PM »
Unless you hold like a very mechudash chasam sofer , chalav stam is basically pashut.
If you are koveah seudah, you must make hamotzi and bentch, despite the fast that the criteria you mentioned were met.
Chalav stam is at worst a din d'rabanan. bircas hamazon is a din d'oraisa and according to most rishonim you are not yotze mid'oraisa with Al hamichya.
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Offline dirah

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 07:50:16 PM »
Unless you hold like a very mechudash chasam sofer , chalav stam is basically pashut.
If you are koveah seudah, you must make hamotzi and bentch, despite the fast that the criteria you mentioned were met.
Chalav stam is at worst a din d'rabanan. bircas hamazon is a din d'oraisa and according to most rishonim you are not yotze mid'oraisa with Al hamichya.
The only clear D'Orayso I see here is an Am Haoretz D'oRayso.

Cholov Yisroel: In his generation, Reb Moshe was pretty much the only Posek who was Matir Cholov Stam, even though, as he himself writes in his Teshuvos, he never personally relied on his Hetter, and he never let Cholov Stam enter his house. All of his contemporaries disagreed with him. The Chassam Sofer I presume you quote (YD 107) is pretty much status quo, and no need to re-hash it on DDF when it is all spelled out clearly in the many Teshuvos which discuss it.  See Igros Moshe [YD 1:46] where he himself writes that we Pasken like the Chassam Sofer, and therefore looks for other leniencies.

[The only "Chiddush" that there might be in the Chasam Sofer is his opinion that for those who pasken like the lenient opinions of the Radvaz and Pri Chadash, yet choose to be Machmir anyways, their Chumra takes on the status of a personal Neder which is D'Orayso. However, this is somewhat irrelevant to Chalav Stam, since we don't pasken like the lenient opinions in the first place, and even if we did, those opinions anyways cannot be relied upon for Cholov Stam, since they were only Mattir when there are no non-Kosher dairy animals in the country.]

Mezonos Rolls: As you yourself write "If you are Koveah Seudah". Did you ever entertain the thought that someone might not be interested in eating the whole airline meal, and just wants to snack on the pitifully-sized bread roll?

As to the last nonsense you wrote: "Chamurim Divrei Sofrim Yoser MiDivrei Torah". And Benching is not D'Orayso unless you ate Kdei Sviah.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 08:01:40 PM by dirah »

Offline Ergel

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 09:05:42 PM »
The only clear D'Orayso I see here is an Am Haoretz D'oRayso.

Unnecessary

 
Quote

Cholov Yisroel: In his generation, Reb Moshe was pretty much the only Posek who was Matir Cholov Stam, even though, as he himself writes in his Teshuvos, he never personally relied on his Hetter, and he never let Cholov Stam enter his house.
 

Just because he says a Baal nefesh should be machmir does not mean he thought it was assur. He would have not been matir if he thought so.

 
Quote

 All of his contemporaries disagreed with him.
 

I think we can all agree he was the posek hador.

 
Quote

 The Chassam Sofer I presume you quote (YD 107) is pretty much status quo, and no need to re-hash it on DDF when it is all spelled out clearly in the many Teshuvos which discuss it.  See Igros Moshe [YD 1:46] where he himself writes that we Pasken like the Chassam Sofer, and therefore looks for other leniencies.

[The only "Chiddush" that there might be in the Chasam Sofer is his opinion that for those who pasken like the lenient opinions of the Radvaz and Pri Chadash, yet choose to be Machmir anyways, their Chumra takes on the status of a personal Neder which is D'Orayso. However, this is somewhat irrelevant to Chalav Stam, since we don't pasken like the lenient opinions in the first place, and even if we did, those opinions anyways cannot be relied upon for Cholov Stam, since they were only Mattir when there are no non-Kosher dairy animals in the country.]
 

The chasam sofer is mechadesh that an umdenah dmuchach does not suffice forChalav yisroel,, nothing short of yisroel roeh is ok. That to me is the best reason to be machmir but a big chiddush. Other earlier poskim being machmir doesn't necessarily prove anything as there was no umdanah demuchach based on government supervision.

 
Quote

Mezonos Rolls: As you yourself write "If you are Koveah Seudah". Did you ever entertain the thought that someone might not be interested in eating the whole airline meal, and just wants to snack on the pitifully-sized bread roll?
 

Possibly. But I believe most people would be nichshal in being kovea seudah and not washing.

I am not saying that people should follow these psakim. I am just saying why the OU deems one issue bigger than the other, and not for economic reasons

 
Quote

As to the last nonsense you wrote: "Chamurim Divrei Sofrim Yoser MiDivrei Torah".

And yet sofek drabanan lekula and poskim are always more mekil about derabanans than d'oraisahs. Go figure. Anything else you want to quote out of context?

Quote
And Benching is not D'Orayso unless you ate Kdei Sviah.

True. But this depends on how much you ate and how big of an appetite you have
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 10:16:29 PM by Ergel »
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Offline YOSEF

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 10:05:29 PM »
@Ergel
+1;
Mezonos rolls (at least for Ashkanazim) is a much more modern day "invention".

AFAIK, everyone is maskim that Chalav Yisroel is not a din min HaTorah, even without R' Moshe; it was a din dirabonen when an Akum couldn't be trusted; R' Moshe was "michadesh" that an Akum could now be trusted again.

Regarding a mezonos roll, unless the "wheat/flour" is cooked with a liquid medium (water, oil, etc) and is baked instead (the "heat" medium), there are major issues when the baked good is even eaten with a meal according to many poskim.

As for the American OU, they are an organization in America, and IMHO, they have a right to follow the posek of America, without coming under fire.

Offline aussiebochur

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 11:42:35 PM »
#IimploreYouDan
Lol!

If only the masses had (used) twitter...trending all day, every day ;)

Offline dirah

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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 04:51:08 AM »
 
Unnecessary
Agreed. And so was your initial response.
 
Just because he says a Baal nefesh should be machmir does not mean he thought it was assur. He would have not been matir if he thought so.

Of course if Reb Moshe was Mattir, then he trusted his Psak. At the same time, let us put this Hetter in the context that Reb Moshe puts it in:

•   “For a Bal Nefesh, it is certainly appropriate to be stringent” (YD 1:48 and 1:49).
•   “Nevertheless, it is fitting to be stringent” (YD 2:31; no mention of Bal Nefesh).
•   Yeshivos should only serve Cholov Yisroel, despite the heavy financial burden (YD 2:35).
•   This leniency should only be relied on Bishas Hadchak, and not merely due to a small additional expense (YD 4:5).
•   If one's Minhag is to not rely on the Hetter, or he chose not to rely on the Hetter, he may not subsequently be lenient.

In any case, my point is not that Reb Moshe can’t be relied upon – CH”V to suggest such a thing. It is up to the individual, under the guidance of his LOR, to determine how he should conduct himself. 

My point is that a vast segment of the Frum community does not rely on Reb Moshe’s Psak. And, no orthodox rabbi worth his salt would suggest that someone completely disregard his stringent Minhag, due to Reb Moshe’s Psak. This would be going againt Reb Moshe himself. That being the case, it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.
 
I think we can all agree he was the posek hador.
...which didn’t stop most of his contemporary poskim from disagreeing with him.
 
The chasam sofer is mechadesh that an umdenah dmuchach does not suffice forChalav yisroel,, nothing short of yisroel roeh is ok. That to me is the best reason to be machmir but a big chiddush. Other earlier poskim being machmir doesn't necessarily prove anything as there was no umdanah demuchach based on government supervision.

The Chasam Sofer does not mention a word about Umdenah DeMuchach. The gist of his words is that Cholov Yisroel is a Dovor Shebminyan; a decree which remains completely in force even when the time and circumstances changes. He explains that this is the opinion of most Ashkenazi Rishonim and Achronim, and is binding for an Ashkenazi. [The Chasam Sofer adds that some Sefardi Rishonim disagree with the above, and that some Sfardi communities are therefore lenient. However, the Sdei Chemed writes that, in our time, the Sfardim have also adopted the position that Cholov Yisroel is a Dovor Shebminyan.] Therefore, a Yid must actually see the milking process. [Of course, what constitutes “seeing” is not so simple, see Shulchan Oruch for details.] Otherwise, it is forbidden.

As I stated before, the Chasam Sofer's Teshuvah is pretty much status quo, and Reb Moshe himself agrees with it. Which is why he forbids buying milk directly from a farmer, (or any other situation which does not involve government oversight,) even when circumstantial evidence completely indicates that the milk is Tahor (YD 1:46). This is because the milking process was not seen .

If there is any Chiddush over here, it is the opinion of Reb Moshe, not the Chasam Sofer. Reb Moshe posits that one can rely on government oversight - a situation that the earlier Poskim did not speak about, and neither did the Chasam Sofer! Reb Moshe's reasoning is that government oversight not only constitutes a “Birur” (clarification), but actual R’Iyah (seeing) by a Yid. His reasons for this is way beyond the scope of a post on DDF, (you can check it up in YD 1:47 and 1:48,) but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to perceive that there is a big Chiddush here. And it is this Chiddush that most other Poskim disagree with, both from a Halachic perspective as well as a practical one. I could list some of their concerns briefly, but that would add at least another 50 lines to this post.
 
And yet sofek drabanan lekula and poskim are always more mekil about derabanans than d'oraisahs. Go figure. Anything else you want to quote out of context?
I didn’t quote anything out of context. One must be as careful – if not more careful – with a D’rabanan than with a D’Orayso.

The concept of Sofek D’Orayos L’Chumra and Sofek D’rabanan L’kula does not indicate that a Drabanan is "less important" than a D'Orayso. This is a common misconception. The reason that "Sofek D’rabanan L’kula" is because of "Hem Omru V’hem Omru".
 
True. But this depends on how much you ate and how big of an appetite you have
Yup. That is what Kdei Sviah means.

Even without R' Moshe; it was a din dirabonen when an Akum couldn't be trusted; R' Moshe was "michadesh" that an Akum could now be trusted again.
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense; absolute and complete nonsense.
I challenge you to find even one Posek who ever said such a thing. And don’t just throw out a name; please include a quote or reference.

As for the American OU, they are an organization in America, and IMHO, they have a right to follow the posek of America, without coming under fire.
As I said above, it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.

Mods: I realize that this discussion has spiralled onto a tangent. Feel free to extract this discussion into a new thread.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 05:32:08 AM by dirah »

Offline Chaikel

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 01:10:24 PM »
Rama, Shach, and Taz all hold that a goy can be trusted bmokom mirsus for drabanans for the status of an item. R' Moshe just took a [basically] completely muskam din and applied it to CHS. The reason to be machmir by CHS is if the gzeira of CA was made not because of a sofek that it might not be cows milk, rather a geziera "bli ta'am" if you will. IE even if you have a way around it, it's still assur
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Offline LAXtraveler

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 01:27:15 PM »
I think from a practical standpoint the OU was trying to make it so that people don't mistake not washing when someone is being koveah seudah, even if the roll may be mezonos. OTOH, when it comes to chalav stam, the OU certifies products all the time that are not chalav yisrael and therefore not going to be as concerned with that.

In the end, I think it comes down to the fact that, practically speaking, most people on a plane won't wash on a mezonos roll even if they perhaps should be washing because they are being koveah seudah on it. By requiring the rolls to me hamotzi rolls from the beginning, they are making it so their consumers know in advance what to expect.

I don't think this is them taking a stand on what is more important in halacha (chalav yisrael vs. mezonos/hamozti), I think it is purely a practical decision based on what people's tendencies are on planes.

Just my $.002

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 01:31:43 PM »
Where exactly does the OU want you to wash for bread on a plane?  The real question here is you're even allowed to wash in a bathroom, especially one that stinks!

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Chaikel

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 01:36:53 PM »
Where exactly does the OU want you to wash for bread on a plane?  The real question here is you're even allowed to wash in a bathroom, especially one that stinks!

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?


Well if you have to wash on the mezonos roll anyway, then how will that help you?
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