Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 55917 times)

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #210 on: August 02, 2013, 02:35:00 AM »
This is not so.
Reb Moshe is addressing a simple - independent - issue.
Granted that one wishes to be סומך on those who are מיקל, but since he was מחמיר up until now, he might think he needs to continue being מחמיר, due to a totally separate concern - that since he did it three times, it has the status of a נדר.
As we say in התרת נדרים, any good practice done three times has the status of a נדר to some degree:
או אֵיזו הַנְהָגָה טובָה שֶׁנָּהַגְתִּי שָׁלשׁ פְּעָמִים וְלא הִתְנֵיתִי שֶׁיְּהֵא בְּלִי נֶדֶר

So Reb Moshe is clarifying - as most other Poskim hold - that when one did a certain practice three times due to a misconception, (in our case he thought that there are no Poskim who hold you can be מיקל with regards to חלב), this does not have the תוקף of a נדר.

Another famous example of this: Some Poskim say that if someone was careful to give מעשר כספים because he thought it was a דרבנן, and then he discovers that others hold that it is only a מנהג and he wants to be מיקל, he doesn't have to be concerned about הלכות נדרים, because his original conduct was based on a misconception.
Obviously, these Poskim do not mean to say that there is no Tzad to say מעשר כספים is מדרבנן.
My understanding of the tshuva is that the misconception involved is that he thought that chalav stam is asur, which R' Moshe is saying that there isn't any issur accross the board but if there was any tzad then R' Moshe would require hatara as it would be a safek neder, I'll have to look at it again, to see if the mashmaus is like you say.


Offline sky121

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Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #211 on: June 03, 2014, 11:24:39 AM »
Is there even such a thing as cholov stam outside the US?

Sure there is.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline rots5

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #212 on: June 03, 2014, 11:25:33 AM »
Sure there is.
Firstly pls explain, second... why the recent switch?
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Offline sky121

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #213 on: June 03, 2014, 11:30:26 AM »
Milk for one.
Switch?
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Offline rots5

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #214 on: June 03, 2014, 11:32:06 AM »
Milk for one.
Switch?
The 'heter' of cholov stam is the fact that R Moshe knew in the US that either the company wouldnt add pig milk. (or in his newer tshuva) there was cameras.. mirsus.

switch ur avatar.
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Offline sky121

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #215 on: June 03, 2014, 11:35:21 AM »
The 'heter' of cholov stam is the fact that R Moshe knew in the US that either the company wouldnt add pig milk. (or in his newer tshuva) there was cameras.. mirsus.

switch ur avatar.

There are other countries and Rabbis who hold that the government rules are trustworthy and permit dairy as well for this reason.
I know I've eaten a Mars bar in Europe that was kosher and chalav stam. The idea def exists.

And I was messing around with Avatars at the dentist office to pass the time. :)
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline rots5

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #216 on: June 03, 2014, 12:35:41 PM »
There are other countries and Rabbis who hold that the government rules are trustworthy and permit dairy as well for this reason.
I know I've eaten a Mars bar in Europe that was kosher and chalav stam. The idea def exists.

And I was messing around with Avatars at the dentist office to pass the time. :)
Ok, had no idea this was a worldwide possibility
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Offline sky121

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #217 on: June 03, 2014, 12:43:03 PM »
Maybe someone who lives in Europe can chime in but that's just from my experience.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #218 on: June 03, 2014, 12:47:05 PM »
OT rant, but the best is the folks that won't trust the government for anything, but for this they trust them.

Even though the agencies themselves admit they don't even enforce that it's only cow juice...so they trust what they don't even pretend to be protecting. Never mind that in every jewish community in 2014 you can get C"Y without causing any hardship, financial or otherwise...

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline sky121

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #219 on: June 03, 2014, 12:50:17 PM »
OT rant, but the best is the folks that won't trust the government for anything, but for this they trust them.

Even though the agencies themselves admit they don't even enforce that it's only cow juice...so they trust what they don't even pretend to be protecting. Never mind that in every jewish community in 2014 you can get C"Y without causing any hardship, financial or otherwise...

I think most people in religious communities abroad drink only cholov yisroel, no?  It only comes up while travelling.   How do the agencies give hechshee approval on items unless their sure about the milk??
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #220 on: June 03, 2014, 12:52:04 PM »
I think most people in religious communities abroad drink only cholov yisroel, no?
Of course not.  But someone who knows the sugya and history is only fooling themself...the people that don't think the government should have their hand in anything due to mismanagement but rely on them for religions observance on something the government says they don't even watch out for is mind-boggling.

How do the agencies give hechshee approval on items unless their sure about the milk??
Beats me. Those that investigated found out that it's not something actively enforced, tested,  or penalized.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 12:55:08 PM by Dan »
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Offline sky121

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #221 on: June 03, 2014, 01:01:20 PM »
Of course not.  But someone who knows the sugya and history is only fooling themself...the people that don't think the government should have their hand in anything due to mismanagement but rely on them for religions observance on something the government says they don't even watch out for is mind-boggling.
Beats me. Those that investigated found out that it's not something actively enforced, tested,  or penalized.

It's quite interesting. Especially in a country like France that has a quite a bit of religous Jews. Not sure if things have changed but last I knew they only had boxed chalav yisroel milk.

Or even why they can't have a chalav stam milk WITH a hechsher is beyond me.
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Offline lunatic

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #222 on: June 03, 2014, 01:02:07 PM »
OT rant, but the best is the folks that won't trust the government for anything, but for this they trust them.

Even though the agencies themselves admit they don't even enforce that it's only cow juice...so they trust what they don't even pretend to be protecting. Never mind that in every jewish community in 2014 you can get C"Y without causing any hardship, financial or otherwise...



Financial? I just bought CY ingredients for cheesecake.... costs close to 3 times as much as non-CY

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #223 on: June 03, 2014, 01:05:24 PM »
Def.
I eat cholov stam. Certain things are WAY more expensive cholov yisroel such as milk, butter and ice cream. Cheese is pretty well priced.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Re: Paris Master Thread
« Reply #224 on: June 03, 2014, 01:07:36 PM »
A half gallon of POTF Ice Cream is $7.99.  How much cheaper can non-CY possibly be?

Triple the price seems like a massive exaggeration to me.
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