The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam

[EliJelly]

No idea where you see him saying that, but hey, it’s in style.

Clearly implying that, besides for the fact that it's totally untrue and weird to posit just the opposite of known facts.

One Chelkas Yaakov makes the da'as yochid the other way.

[imayid2]

I have no idea what the other account is, but if I needed to guess based on similarities in content it probably was speeding.

Similarities in content to an account you don’t know?

[imayid2]

Clearly implying that

No, he was turning it around and saying you can’t say he’s the daas yachid if no one else talks about it.  If one other person talks about it he can claim he’s the daas yachid.

[aygart]

Similarities in content to an account you don’t know?

I don't know but would make some guesses. That shouldn't have been too difficult to understand.

[imayid2]

I don't know but would make some guesses. That shouldn't have been too difficult to understand.

So which account has similar content?

[imayid2]

When R' Moshe came to the US in 1937, pure milk regulations were at most 30ish years old, but mostly (at the federal level) fairly new from within the last decade - New Deal era laws.
To call whatever psak there was from whatever rabbanim were there "accepted psak", when the metzius of commercial/industrial milk production and its regulation was itself so new...

"pics or it didn't happen". There are hundreds if not thousands of teshuvos written by american rabbanim in the early decades of the 20th century, on many many different topics - and it's reasonable to expect that if there was a "accepted psak" that honestly is quite a chiddush - we would have a written record of it.

Here is your pic:

Published in 1903 (could have been written a number of years before, it’s not dated)
What’s Rabbi Yosef Fried referring to, and on what grounds to you think Rav Moshe wouldn’t consider that sufficient?

 

(my GGF has a long back and forth in his tsuva seforim with Rav Henkin about a chiddush of his regarding the kashrus of stam grape juice - but nothing regarding stam milk...

Of all people you choose to showcase Rav Henkin? He clearly writes that many are meikal because of government supervision.

[imayid2]

Rav Moshe writes clearly that תלמידי חכמים and יראי שמים were not machmir btw


And yes, they were being meikal already before he came:
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/448021/cholov-yisroel-versus-cholov-stam.html

It is also interesting to note that, contrary to popular thought, Rav Feinstein was not the first authority to allow the consumption of non-Cholov Yisroel milk produced in the United States. In the 1930’s, some of the Cholov Yisroel producers were not so scrupulous in their business practices, and knowing that they had a relatively captive market, tended to water down the milk to increase profits.

Rabbinic leaders were incensed and, until the situation would be rectified ruled that, under such circumstances, one would be permitted to adopt the lenient view of the Pri Chodosh (Yore Deah 115:15) who permitted the consumption of chalav akum when the non-kosher milk is less expensive than the kosher variety.

Thus, Rabbi Dovid Leibowitz zt”l, a great nephew of the Chofetz Chaim, temporarily introduced regular American milk into the then newly launched Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim on South Ninth Street in Brooklyn.

This is just historical ameratzus, plain and simple.

[Dan]

Given the general state of distrust of the government today (especially post-COVID) and given that the FDA says it's not something they watch for, would things have been different if paskened today? Or does this remain the one thing we do trust our government to do?

[avromie7]

Given the general state of distrust of the government today (especially post-COVID) and given that the FDA says it's not something they watch for, would things have been different if paskened today?

I was in R' Reuven Feinstein's office when someone showed him an ad in The Yated saying that nowadays R' Moshe's heter of CS doesn't apply. He got very upset about it and said they have no ne'emanus and you don't even need to look into their claims.

To take on your point directly, it's not the government who is trusted. It's the producers who are trusted due to their fear of the government.

[imayid2]

Given the general state of distrust of the government today (especially post-COVID) and given that the FDA says it's not something they watch for, would things have been different if paskened today? Or does this remain the one thing we do trust our government to do?

https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/

Rabbi Eli Gersten, based on diyukim in Igros Moshe (ibid. teshuva 49 and YD 3:17), understood and convincingly demonstrated that Reb Moshe held that since Chazal were gozair only upon the final point of possession of milk prior to its transfer to a Yisroel, the lack of meaningful verification at dairy plants is immaterial; so long as government inspectors visit the dairies and see that nothing is being added to the milk (and see no non-kosher species on-site!), the milk is permitted.

[EliJelly]

To take on your point directly, it's not the government who is trusted. It's the producers who are trusted due to their fear of the government.

Can you explain the logic here please? If we assume the government can't be trusted then there is no fear and the producers lose their trust.

[Dan]

I was in R' Reuven Feinstein's office when someone showed him an ad in The Yated saying that nowadays R' Moshe's heter of CS doesn't apply. He got very upset about it and said they have no ne'emanus and you don't even need to look into their claims.

To take on your point directly, it's not the government who is trusted. It's the producers who are trusted due to their fear of the government.

Is there a fear of government in 2023? How many fines a year are levied by the government against companies that cheat?

[imayid2]

The companies are terrified of the FDA, I heard from someone involved in one. They issue fines and have the power to make things unpleasant for them when things aren’t to their liking.

[EliJelly]

The companies are terrified of the FDA, I heard from someone involved in one.

Terrified of bacteria etc.

[Dan]

The companies are terrified of the FDA, I heard from someone involved in one. They issue fines and have the power to make things unpleasant for them when things aren’t to their liking.

Quick google search shows thousands of FDA issued warning letters and fines.

Always easier to apologize post facto if caught.

[avromie7]

Can you explain the logic here please? If we assume the government can't be trusted then there is no fear and the producers lose their trust.

Can't be trusted =/= no fear.

What is the correlation between trust and fear?

[avromie7]

Quick google search shows thousands of FDA issued warning letters and fines.

Always easier to apologize post facto if caught.

Like when they caused a nationwide formula shortage for no good reason?

[imayid2]

Quick google search shows thousands of FDA issued warning letters and fines.

Great, seems the system’s working. So fair to assume they wouldn’t risk it to use another species milk.

[Chuchum Ainer]

https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/

Very interesting, definitely worth a read.

This part struck me

It should be noted that the above, newly-formulated position on cholov stam is actually the total reverse of Reb Moshe’s heter: Reb Moshe was mattir cholov stam based on dairy plants being inspected by the government, and government inspection of farms was a non-issue due to the concept of “bo l’yad Yisroel”. Now, in contradistinction, government inspection of farms plays the central role, and dairy plant inspection is no longer central for the heter. It is also important to note that the new position does not rely on “bo l’yad Yisroel” and may appeal to those who were not comfortable using this rationale in this case.

Unrelated to the above,
I haven't done a proper learn through of the sugya, but if I understand correctly, Rav Moshe did not base his hetter on the Pri Chdodosh, but rather went to lengths to argue it according to the Chsam Soffer. (Not that the gzeirah no longer applies for some reason, but that anan sahadei (as the ou page notes) is just as good as a physical yid watching). Why do people throw around the pri chodosh when explaining chalav stam?

[yfr bachur]

Here is your pic:

Published in 1903 (could have been written a number of years before, it’s not dated)
What’s Rabbi Yosef Fried referring to, and on what grounds to you think Rav Moshe wouldn’t consider that sufficient?

A. Thank you for the M"M. The original poster was alleging that Rav Moshe was the first one to write down a 'widely accepted psak for dorei doros" that had never been written down... To which I stated that thats an unreasonable premise...
B. I don't know who Rabbi Yosef Fried is, or where lived... (or which sefer your quoting  ) but yes, we need to research what he was refering to,and if he possibly could have been mistaken on what the koach of the Govt supervision was. Remember, "The Jungle" which was an expose of, among other things, the compleate failure of govt food regulations at the time was published in 1905.
This is a short history of US dairies...
https://dairymarkets.org/PubPod/Reference/Library/Weimar&Blayney.1994.pdf
When would YOU say "Company" milk (as opposed to private, farmer) starts? wheen does regulation/inspections start?
C. I'm not taking any position on anything in the sugya at all. There are way bigger TC on this forum who can do that. I'm just commenting on flaws I see in the way the OP sees the historical record.

Of all people you choose to showcase Rav Henkin? He clearly writes that many are meikal because of government supervision.

Actualy, My GGF. Rav Henkin told him that his chidushim were a bridge too far.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1554&st=&pgnum=5

Rav Moshe writes clearly that תלמידי חכמים and יראי שמים were not machmir btw

And yes, they were being meikal already before he came:
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/448021/cholov-yisroel-versus-cholov-stam.html

Not debating that point. Just that its (R moshes heter to rely on govt regs) not something that can be called a previous unwrittien mesorah for dorei doros. We know that there were very chashuv erlicher yidden in the US in the late 1800- early 1900 but 50 years is not something that can be called a minhag for dorei doros... As is the lack of history of "company milk" and "regulations" for a significant amount of time.

Rabbinic leaders were incensed and, until the situation would be rectified ruled that, under such circumstances, one would be permitted to adopt the lenient view of the Pri Chodosh (Yore Deah 115:15) who permitted the consumption of chalav akum when the non-kosher milk is less expensive than the kosher variety.

I don't think the Pri Chodosh says what Rav Moshe says...Maybe in result but def not in reason...