The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam

[imayid2]

I don't know who Rabbi Yosef Fried is, or where lived...

New York.

[moko]

Why do people throw around the pri chodosh when explaining chalav stam?

for all the other 3rd world countries... I'm sorry, emerging economies, where they also apply the heter

[imayid2]

Why do people throw around the pri chodosh when explaining chalav stam?

It’s another tziruf. The חזו״א likes it IIRC

[avromie7]

Very interesting, definitely worth a read.

This part struck me
Unrelated to the above,
I haven't done a proper learn through of the sugya, but if I understand correctly, Rav Moshe did not base his hetter on the Pri Chdodosh, but rather went to lengths to argue it according to the Chsam Soffer. (Not that the gzeirah no longer applies for some reason, but that anan sahadei (as the ou page notes) is just as good as a physical yid watching). Why do people throw around the pri chodosh when explaining chalav stam?

IINM, R' Moshe rejects the reasoning of the Pri Chadash. This has major implications, because there are scenarios where one of them applies and the other doesn't.

ETA:

for all the other 3rd world countries... I'm sorry, emerging economies, where they also apply the heter

[imayid2]

The original poster was alleging that Rav Moshe was the first one to write down a 'widely accepted psak for dorei doros" that had never been written down... To which I stated that thats an unreasonable premise...

He did not say that, he said “doros”. Anyway, so make it decades instead.

His point stands.

50 years is not something that can be called a minhag for dorei doros

The number of years is not really the point.

I don't know who Rabbi Yosef Fried is, or where lived...

New York.
שו״ת אהלי יוסף
https://hebrewbooks.org/2547

[yfr bachur]

He did not say that, he said “doros”. Anyway, so make it decades instead.

You are distorting the argument. Rabbonim were meikil, not people who worked on Shabbos. It was accepted as a דבר המותר based on Rabbonim who didn't write Teshuvos. Ba'alei Teshuva and Geirim don't know this, because they have no connection to past generations. But Reb Moshe did, and he explained the heter they relied on, in his opinion.

... doros of ehrliche Yidden do something, it is itself a source lehalacha.

[imayid2]

Exactly!

[Chuchum Ainer]

It’s another tziruf. The חזו״א likes it IIRC

But Rav Moshe was not metzaref it, no?
I get that we mix and match daas yachids (deos yechidim?) when paskening cases (like not kashering keilim after bishul akum if there is another shita that says it's not even bishul akum in that specific case) but it seems weird to be metzaref them when the later authority clearly rejects paskening like that earlier authority.

[imayid2]

But Rav Moshe was not metzaref it, no?
I get that we mix and match daas yachids (deos yechidim?) when paskening cases (like not kashering keilim after bishul akum if there is another shita that says it's not even bishul akum in that specific case) but it seems weird to be metzaref them when the later authority clearly rejects paskening like that earlier authority.

Not sure what you mean. For example, say the חזו״א says one can be somech on the פרי חדש (need to check on that), that’s a significant point to take into account להלכה.

[imayid2]

It’s another tziruf. The חזו״א likes it IIRC

Also, other poskim rely on the פר״ח when there is government supervision.

[imayid2]

But Rav Moshe was not metzaref it, no?
I get that we mix and match daas yachids (deos yechidim?) when paskening cases (like not kashering keilim after bishul akum if there is another shita that says it's not even bishul akum in that specific case) but it seems weird to be metzaref them when the later authority clearly rejects paskening like that earlier authority.

I don’t think he ever explicitly “rejects” it, just says it’s even better than that.

Also, hard to call the פרי חדש a daas yachid, other achronim hold like that as well.

[aygart]

So which account has similar content?

What is your obsession with this unusual account?

[AsherO]

What is your obsession with this unusual account?

He likes the content/challenge.

[aygart]

He did not say that, he said “doros”. Anyway, so make it decades instead.

His point stands.

I have 2 shelves full of tshuvos written in America in the first half of the 20th century and they are full of psakim that were written in a situation where it was needed to go on a limb for people to have food to eat and similar situations. Many of them are thing that were widely relied upon at the time but that that any hechsher relying on it now would be considered unacceptable by almost everyone. This actually describes some current hechsherim that very few people rely on. To say that all of these things are a "minag ldoros" is simply ridiculous just like saying that not covering hair or mixed swimming is a minhag ldoros.

[Darth1]

1. Reb Moshe was not mechadesh the heter. It was an accepted psak before he arrived. Rabbonim were meikel, albeit never wrote Teshuvos.
2. Rav Henkin, the Chazon Ish, Reb Aaron Kotler, and Reb Eliezer Silver all held it was muttar. These were basically the greatest Poskim America had at the time.

I heard from a chosheve rav that if you look through the tshuva from R Moshe you will see the reason why he bent backwards to find a heter is because of the issue that there were Rabonim in America at the time who were meikel. He said that it seems like R Moshe was almost "forced" to find a heter because if he didn't find one then the people asking the question would say 'if what my rabbi says about kashrus (Cholov Stam) is worthless then what he says about taharas hamishpaha and shabbos must be nonsense also'

For example, say the חזו״א says one can be somech on the פרי חדש (need to check on that), that’s a significant point to take into account להלכה.

I have heard that the old editions of  חזו״א says one can be somech on the פרי חדש however in the newer editions it has been removed. Either way it has nothing to do with the hetter from R Moshe, and if one in America is somech on R Moshe it would not allow them rely on R Tzvi Pesach Frank which relies on the פרי חדש. Therefor they cannot eat non-mehadrin dairy products in Israel which say on the Avkas Cholov Nachri.

[aygart]

I heard from a chosheve rav that if you look through the tshuva from R Moshe you will see the reason why he bent backwards to find a heter is because of the issue that there were Rabonim in America at the time who were meikel. He said that it seems like R Moshe was almost "forced" to find a heter because if he didn't find one then the people asking the question would say 'if what my rabbi says about kashrus (Cholov Stam) is worthless then what he says about taharas hamishpaha and shabbos must be nonsense also'I have heard that the old editions of  חזו״א says one can be somech on the פרי חדש however in the newer editions it has been removed. Either way it has nothing to do with the hetter from R Moshe, and if one in America is somech on R Moshe it would not allow them rely on R Tzvi Pesach Frank which relies on the פרי חדש. Therefor they cannot eat non-mehadrin dairy products in Israel which say on the Avkas Cholov Nachri.

I am very sceptical of saying this about Rav Moshe especially considering how he mentions it in tshuvos that did not have that concern.

The powdered milk is not made from milk under govt. supervision?

[AsherO]

The powdered milk is not made from milk under govt. supervision?

Maybe it’s cheaper to import it?

[moko]

Maybe it’s cheaper to import it?

Rabbanut aloes any אבקת חלב נכרי with an approved hashgacha which can come from emerging economies locales.....or countries where it ain't fraud unless you get caught

[imayid2]

What is your obsession with this unusual account?

What is your point in pushing a claim that as I said I know to be untrue?

I don’t like people being banned for no reason and a rule violation selectively enforced. I like to speed sometimes too

[imayid2]

I have 2 shelves full of tshuvos written in America in the first half of the 20th century and they are full of psakim that were written in a situation where it was needed to go on a limb for people to have food to eat and similar situations. Many of them are thing that were widely relied upon at the time but that that any hechsher relying on it now would be considered unacceptable by almost everyone. This actually describes some current hechsherim that very few people rely on. To say that all of these things are a "minag ldoros" is simply ridiculous just like saying that not covering hair or mixed swimming is a minhag ldoros.

This is ridiculous red herring. These things are at the discretion of the poskei hador and Rav Moshe felt in was a justifiable heter.