Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 94775 times)

Offline mercaz1

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2012, 01:54:43 PM »
if it bothers you so much then just bring your own food on the plane and all these issues go away
no one is forcing anyone to order the kosher food meals and it is up to the airlines which caterer they use so obviously they will go with the cheaper one esp when it is OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2012, 01:56:24 PM »
if it bothers you so much then just bring your own food on the plane and all these issues go away
no one is forcing anyone to order the kosher food meals and it is up to the airlines which caterer they use so obviously they will go with the cheaper one esp when it is OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher
Wow, that answer sounded just like the FT'ers who get mad when someone jewish complains about no KSMLs being offered in first class on routes like EWR-LAS/SAN/SNA/ONT/SEA/PDX, etc...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 01:59:29 PM by Dan »
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Offline mercaz1

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2012, 01:57:53 PM »
there were so mny acronyms in that post dan you should just put a link to that thread so i can check what each one means while i read the post

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2012, 02:02:15 PM »
there were so mny acronyms in that post dan you should just put a link to that thread so i can check what each one means while i read the post
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13317
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Offline Mocha

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2012, 02:02:38 PM »
there were so mny acronyms in that post dan you should just put a link to that thread so i can check what each one means while i read the post
mny acronym for many?

EWR-LAS/SAN/SNA/ONT/SEA/PDX simple google search will bring up these airports. To start you off....

EWR-Newark
LAS-Vegas
SAN-San Diego
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 02:06:58 PM by Mocha »

Offline mercaz1

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2012, 02:06:01 PM »
thanks
mny was a mistake
those FT'ers might have a point

Offline Chaikel

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2012, 02:15:38 PM »
thanks
mny was a mistake
those FT'ers might have a point
So why offer KSML at all?
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Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2012, 02:18:27 PM »
KSMLs are offered on routes the airline deem them to be profitable and will drive incremental business or on routes where they need to offer them for competitive reasons.
My guess is the SML decision makers don't even know about C"Y, or at least the UA ones don't as CO gives C"Y meals...

FT'ers just like to moan and groan when anyone wants special treatment (like KSMLs), but the bottom line is they're offered for a reason.
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Offline mercaz1

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2012, 02:18:48 PM »
i have no idea maybe certain routes have more jews that request it than others and those routes that dont have a lot of requests dont get
the difference is that in this thread they are getting upset about the type of kosher being offered abd the jews on those routes are just asking for kosher in general
there is a difference

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2012, 02:21:10 PM »
i have no idea maybe certain routes have more jews that request it than others and those routes that dont have a lot of requests dont get
the difference is that in this thread they are getting upset about the type of kosher being offered abd the jews on those routes are just asking for kosher in general
there is a difference

You're being as selfish as the FT'ers.
"If it's not something I need then why should the airline spend the money on it, go bring it yourself."
The bottom line is C"Y is mainstream in 2012.  Just look at 99% of kosher dairy restaurants, this isn't a small minority like asking for lubavitcher shchita or something.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2012, 02:42:48 PM »
That's a very tricky issue in halacha. It's not so simple as, "I don't want to wash, so I'm not making a kvius."
I am happy that we have poskim on the forums, or at least people that claim to be poskim.

I'm not sure where you found a psak in that line, or where I claimed to be a posek. I certainly don't know the halachos well enough to say when one should or shouldn't wash on a mezonos roll, but I know enough to say that it's not as simple as deciding not to make a kvius.

And washing in a stinky bathroom isn't a tricky issue?
I personally have never had this issue but I don't fly nearly as often as you do. Obviously it is an issue, but in a scenario where one is required to wash, we don't say, forget washing, just make a mezonos. If you brought real bread with you, you'd either have to find a halachically acceptable way to make a hamotzi on it or not eat it. Granted the mezonos roll allows the possibility of not having to wash, but at the cost of the possibility of people not washing and bentching when they should have.

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?
This is obviously the key. If there is demand, they'll make the correct business decision and stick with a caterer that is makpid on cholov yisroel. Of course it's no easy task making them realize that there is a big demand for it.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2012, 02:48:18 PM »
The problem is everyone orders the KSML but how often do you write to them that it wasn't C"Y.
Personally, I never have, though I haven't encountered non-C"y food since the last time I flew a UA transcon in 2002.  But I bet most people never bother complaining to anyone but the FA at most.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2012, 03:07:01 PM »
Maybe a Chabad organization would be a good start for a campaign on this. Think about it, they're makpid on cholov yisroel, and they have people all over the globe (more so than any other Jewish group), which means as a group they fly more than many other groups of Jews. It's difficult to get a lot of people to write/call/email an airline about his, but if a large organization writes to them representing their population, that's a good start.

Offline Chaikel

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2012, 03:23:53 PM »
The problem is everyone orders the KSML but how often do you write to them that it wasn't C"Y.
Personally, I never have, though I haven't encountered non-C"y food since the last time I flew a UA transcon in 2002.  But I bet most people never bother complaining to anyone but the FA at most.
When I flew Alitalia and they served Rabbinute meals, I contacted the PR department. Might be a start
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Offline moish

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2012, 04:13:43 PM »
When I flew Alitalia and they served Rabbinute meals, I contacted the PR department. Might be a start
i shouldve done it too. anyone have the number to rj's pr dept?

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2012, 05:08:36 PM »
Rama, Shach, and Taz all hold that a goy can be trusted bmokom mirsus for drabanans for the status of an item. R' Moshe just took a [basically] completely muskam din and applied it to CHS. The reason to be machmir by CHS is if the gzeira of CA was made not because of a sofek that it might not be cows milk, rather a geziera "bli ta'am" if you will. IE even if you have a way around it, it's still assur
You are being disingenuous (to put it very mildly). Mirsus might help for other Issurim, but there is a higher standard of Mirsus for Cholov Yisroel. I don’t know which Shach you have been learning, but I suggest you have a look at Shach YD 115:8, where he concludes that Mirsus is NOT sufficient, and a Yid must actually be watching. With regards to Cholov, Chazal instituted that the Mirsus must be based on the fact that a Yid is in the vicinity of the milking process, and could easily “pop up” and see exactly what is happening. A lesser form of Mirsus is insufficient. 
 
OTOH, when it comes to chalav stam, the OU certifies products all the time that are not chalav yisrael and therefore not going to be as concerned with that.
I'm not sure what the cholov stam issue has to do with airline meals. As LAXtraveler pointed out, the OU gives a hechsher to cholov stam and cholov stam products. The fact that the"large segment of the community" that is machmir al pi R' Moshe and others won't be able to eat the airline meals with their hechsher is no more a concern to them than the fact that those people won't be able to eat any of their cholov stam products when they're on the ground. You can argue all day whether they should or should not be giving a hechsher on such products, but I don't think that's the same as this discussion.

As I have already said, I am not objecting to OU’s policy on giving a Hechsher to Chalav Stam in general. On the ground, the consumer has a choice. However, in the air, things are different. And it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.
 
You might argue that it's terrible of the airlines to use a caterer that uses cholov stam because they're excluding those who are makpid on cholov yisroel, but they won't care unless there is a big enough demand. And by the way, they are the ones making the financial decision by virtue of which caterer they choose. If one caterer is cholov stam and cheaper, and the airline chooses them over the more expensive cholov yisroel caterer, that's the airline's choice. To say that the OU is putting financial considerations over halachic ones on the basis of airline meals seems a little bit of a stretch.
That was exactly my point. The caterer is in the business for the money, so it doesn’t come as any great surprise that they are doing the cheapest thing, and they will not change their policy unless they get hit in the pocket. [And I am not suggesting that we hit them in the pocket.]
However, OU is supposed to be in the business of upholding Halacha, and putting that before financial considerations. And the fact that OU (as in, the Kashrus agency) took a (controversial) stand regarding Hamotzi / Mezonos shows that they are willing to venture into areas which have nothing to do with Kashrus at all. So, why not take a stand on an issue which is more relevant to Kashrus?

if it bothers you so much then just bring your own food on the plane and all these issues go away
Why don’t you try that out on a route like JFK-SYD, with a family of seven.
Or, maybe read what OU-Kosher has to say about this issue:
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/ou_calls_on_domestic_airlines_to_provide_kosher_meals_snacks_for_sale_on_bo/
Quote: "In an interview, Rabbi Safran noted that kosher flyers must prepare or purchase food before leaving for the airport, pass it through security where it is x-rayed, and bring it on board with the rest of their carry-on belongings, while non-kosher passengers have no such requirements."

it is up to the airlines which caterer they use so obviously they will go with the cheaper one esp when it is OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher
That is the point. Non-Jews don’t know the difference. Therefore “OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher” have a greater responsibility to ensure that their policies represent standard norms of Kosher. Otherwise, non-Jewish service providers (in this case, airlines,) will just regard the customer as a jerk who likes complaining for the sake of complaining (and maybe for some compensation vouchers).
And, Cholov Yisroel is a standard norm.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 05:16:54 PM by dirah »

Offline good sam

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2012, 06:09:39 PM »
Where exactly does the OU want you to wash for bread on a plane?  The real question here is you're even allowed to wash in a bathroom, especially one that stinks!

I think we should make a louder stink to CO/UA to keep the CO caterer (mezonos/CY) and ditch the UA caterer.
But how to best get them that message?
Tell UA you know a way to stop the Jews walking up and down the aisles during meal times.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline LAXtraveler

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2012, 06:29:03 PM »
Therefore “OU which is recognized by even non-jews as being kosher” have a greater responsibility to ensure that their policies represent standard norms of Kosher. Otherwise, non-Jewish service providers (in this case, airlines,) will just regard the customer as a jerk who likes complaining for the sake of complaining (and maybe for some compensation vouchers).
And, Cholov Yisroel is a standard norm.

I don't know if I agree with this completely. I think it has become more common for people to hold themselves to chalav yisrael, but I still think that less than 50% of Jews that order KSMLs in the USA do it. I could be wrong, but that is just my gut.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2012, 06:35:57 PM »
But look at the percentage of kosher restaurants that are C"Y in 2012.  Do C"S places even exist in LA anymore?
I think it's fair to call it a standard norm today.
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Offline LAXtraveler

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2012, 06:39:51 PM »
But look at the percentage of kosher restaurants that are C"Y in 2012.  Do C"S places even exist in LA anymore?
I think it's fair to call it a standard norm today.

But I don't think that is necessarily because the clientele require it, so much as the kashrus agencies require it. For example, I think Nagila's business might go down slightly if it wasn't chalav yisrael, but I don't think they'd be doing too shabby nonetheless.

CBTL (except for the one on Beverly Blvd.)