Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 94711 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2012, 06:47:56 PM »
But I don't think that is necessarily because the clientele require it, so much as the kashrus agencies require it. For example, I think Nagila's business might go down slightly if it wasn't chalav yisrael, but I don't think they'd be doing too shabby nonetheless.

CBTL (except for the one on Beverly Blvd.)
Any restaurant could go under the OU in LA if they feel like it.  Subway was originally going to.
Ultimately they need to make a business decision, and that usually winds up being C"Y, but they have the free will to go under the OU if they want.

Anyway these days C"Y is not a very big expense for restaurants.  Just look how cheap C"Y products like cheese have become thanks to healthy competition. 
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Offline LAXtraveler

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2012, 06:57:05 PM »
Any restaurant could go under the OU in LA if they feel like it.

Others in the kashrus business can chime in, but AFAIK the OU generally doesn't give hashgachos to restaurants in LA. The exception being the winery. (I don't claim to know anything about the old Subway's hashgacha), and I think they might do Continental Bakery in the Valley as well (anyone from the Valley care to share).

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2012, 06:58:07 PM »
From what I heard from the top was that the OU was expecting to land the Subway account before they opened, which makes me doubt what you're saying is correct.
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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2012, 07:04:54 PM »
From what I heard from the top was that the OU was expecting to land the Subway account before they opened, which makes me doubt what you're saying is correct.

Could be, but seems strange that they would try so hard to land an account in a city where they don't seem to be trying with any other restaurant. Again, there are no restaurants in LA that are OU other than the winery. From a straight data perspective, it doesn't seem that the OU is trying so hard to get into this kosher scene, or if they are, they aren't doing a very good job.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2012, 07:08:23 PM »
Or the RCC+Kehilla have a pretty good mafia going on.
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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2012, 07:10:03 PM »
Or the RCC+Kehilla have a pretty good mafia going on.

For some reason I think the OU is stronger than either of these local organizations. They are little blips on a map compared to the OU's weight, IMHO.

Online skyguy918

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2012, 07:10:20 PM »
As I have already said, I am not objecting to OU’s policy on giving a Hechsher to Chalav Stam in general. On the ground, the consumer has a choice. However, in the air, things are different. And it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.

That was exactly my point. The caterer is in the business for the money, so it doesn’t come as any great surprise that they are doing the cheapest thing, and they will not change their policy unless they get hit in the pocket. [And I am not suggesting that we hit them in the pocket.]

However, OU is supposed to be in the business of upholding Halacha, and putting that before financial considerations. And the fact that OU (as in, the Kashrus agency) took a (controversial) stand regarding Hamotzi / Mezonos shows that they are willing to venture into areas which have nothing to do with Kashrus at all. So, why not take a stand on an issue which is more relevant to Kashrus?

I still don't understand why the OU, who on the ground caters to the Jews who are not makpid on cholov yisroel, should all of a sudden in the air be worried about the Jews who are makpid. The reason they give a hechsher on items that are cholov stam on the ground, despite the fact that it will preclude a portion of the Jewish population from eating it, is not because that population can always make do with cholov yisroel items from another hechsher. It's because they decided on a psak that cholov stam here is acceptable. The same holds true in the air. The OU does not have a responsibility to make sure the cholov yisroel Jew is taken care of. That falls on the airline to choose a caterer who's hechsher doesn't allow cholov stam. The airline will only do that if they sense the demand from their customers.

It almost seems like you already have an opinion about the OU in general, and you're carrying that over into this discussion. I don't see why their giving a hechsher to cholov stam in the air being a money grab is any different than saying that their giving a hechsher to cholov stam on the ground is a money grab.

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2012, 07:22:59 PM »
The reason they give a hechsher on items that are cholov stam on the ground, despite the fact that it will preclude a portion of the Jewish population from eating it, is not because that population can always make do with cholov yisroel items from another hechsher. It's because they decided on a psak that cholov stam here is acceptable.
According to your logic, there is no reason for OU to distinguish between Cholov Yisroel and Cholov Stam whatsoever. They should just label it all as Kosher dairy.
It seems that OU recognizes the both valid positions, and caters to both of them.

The OU does not have a responsibility to make sure the cholov yisroel Jew is taken care of.
Why not?

The airline will only do that if they sense the demand from their customers.
Not if they think that they are dealing with a bunch of misfits, who seem to be at odds with the largest Kosher organization in the world.

It almost seems like you already have an opinion about the OU in general, and you're carrying that over into this discussion.
I am sorry you get that impression, and I can confirm that aside for my gripes regarding this particular issue, I don’t have any other concerns with them.

I don't see why their giving a hechsher to cholov stam in the air being a money grab is any different than saying that their giving a hechsher to cholov stam on the ground is a money grab.
I never said that giving a hechsher to cholov stam is a money grab. I did say that the OU doesn’t seem interested in making the right stand if it will be a more expensive one.

Offline LAXtraveler

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2012, 07:28:46 PM »
I never said that giving a hechsher to cholov stam is a money grab. I did say that the OU doesn’t seem interested in making the right stand if it will be a more expensive one.

Anyway these days C"Y is not a very big expense for restaurants.  Just look how cheap C"Y products like cheese have become thanks to healthy competition. 

According to Dan it seems like its just as cheap - so perhaps the saving money argument doesn't really hold up, if looked at it that way.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2012, 07:40:02 PM »
According to Dan it seems like its just as cheap - so perhaps the saving money argument doesn't really hold up, if looked at it that way.
just as cheap≠not a very big expense
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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2012, 07:46:10 PM »
just as cheap≠not a very big expense

OK, you can get nitpicky, but you still know that what your saying doesn't completely jive with what dirah's argument is. If its a significant expense then dirah is right and you are wrong. If its not a significant expense then you are right and dirah is wrong.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2012, 07:49:44 PM »
Not at all, you are the one that changed what I said.
It's an expense, nobody will say there's no expense.  It's one small enough that 99% of restaurant owners have decided is small enough to make it worthwhile making their entire restaurant C"Y.
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Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2012, 07:50:23 PM »
OK, you can get nitpicky, but you still know that what your saying doesn't completely jive with what dirah's argument is. If its a significant expense then dirah is right and you are wrong. If its not a significant expense then you are right and dirah is wrong.
And, either way, OU is wrong!

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2012, 07:50:45 PM »
I mentioned that I emailed UA about this.
It was a while ago, and I just searched my inbox for their reply. Here is the relevant part of their response:
Thank you for your patience as we process the details that you have brought to our attention.
The definitions and descriptions of the two types of kosher meals are helpful.  To make changes to the stricter standard of Chalav Yisroel will be a time consuming and budget restrictive accommodation. Your comments have been escalated to our catering department management staff.  In the meantime, you may call reservations before a flight to confirm whether or not the two types of kosher meals are available.  As an advocate for the change, you may also wish to inform your acquaintances how it would benefit them to email their particular airline of choice to make their preferences be known.

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2012, 07:53:24 PM »
Not at all, you are the one that changed what I said.
It's an expense, nobody will say there's no expense.  It's one small enough that 99% of restaurant owners have decided is small enough to make it worthwhile making their entire restaurant C"Y.

But not small enough that the OU couldn't handle it - but a bunch of small business owners around the country can?

Again, I think the fact that so many restaurants are chalav yisrael are because the agencies require it. I think the expense is one they have to live with if they want to be certified in LA by Kehilla or RCC - simple as that. Either that or don't run a kosher restaurant.

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2012, 07:54:55 PM »
I mentioned that I emailed UA about this.
It was a while ago, and I just searched my inbox for their reply. Here is the relevant part of their response:
Thank you for your patience as we process the details that you have brought to our attention.
The definitions and descriptions of the two types of kosher meals are helpful. To make changes to the stricter standard of Chalav Yisroel will be a time consuming and budget restrictive accommodation. Your comments have been escalated to our catering department management staff.  In the meantime, you may call reservations before a flight to confirm whether or not the two types of kosher meals are available.  As an advocate for the change, you may also wish to inform your acquaintances how it would benefit them to email their particular airline of choice to make their preferences be known.


So then its a pretty big expense according to UA at least. Not
not a very big expense

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2012, 07:57:13 PM »
So then its a pretty big expense according to UA at least. Not "not a very big expense"
Oh, please!
The airline is obviously thinking that to have Chalav Yisroel, they will need to change caterer. Or, get the current caterer to make radical changes!
What does the airline know!

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2012, 08:02:21 PM »
Oh, please!
The airline is obviously thinking that to have Chalav Yisroel, they will need to change caterer. Or, get the current caterer to make radical changes!
What does the airline know!

But they would it seems like, no?

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2012, 08:05:19 PM »
It's entirely possible that for the airline to switch caterers would be a very costly expense. 
UA's kosher caterer makes pretty bad food across the board, so C"Y isn't the only thing they cut back on.
Yet, CO manages to pay for a caterer that serves C"Y, has mezonos rolls, and has hashgocha from just about everyone.
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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2012, 08:08:07 PM »
So, CO's caterer is Borenstein and I've also seen Regal with CO from the US.
Who is UA's caterer?
If CO would serve non-C"Y on the TLV route there would probably be quite the protest...

« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 08:15:44 PM by Dan »
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