The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam

[U-no-me!]

My fact is based on Mishne Halachos (4:103). Direct quote (If your browser displays Hebrew):
הגאון ר' משה שליט"א ... אמר לי מפורש שבביתו ח"ו אין נכנס חלב עכו"ם לא מיניה ולא מקצתו

Hmmm.... I wonder if R' moshe ח"ו would bring internet into his home? Also wasn't R' Moshe an extremely humble person who was extremely makpid on bein adom l'chaveiro, and how about shmiras einayim etc;. Do you only follow r' moshe when it suits you. Are you a machmir or are you just a torah lekanter guy?

[jj1000]

Hmmm.... I wonder if R' moshe ח"ו would bring internet into his home? Also wasn't R' Moshe an extremely humble person who was extremely makpid on bein adom l'chaveiro, and how about shmiras einayim etc;. Do you only follow r' moshe when it suits you. Are you a machmir or are you just a torah lekanter guy?

kinda coming in middle of a conversation but I believe judaism is NOT an all our nothing religion. As a frum jew I try to do my best and if I struggle with something our even if I blatantly and intentionally go against halacha that does not negate the good that I do. After 120 years I am not expecting to be told you had internet therefore every halacha and chumra I did was for naught. On the contrary if someone does one good deed even if he is not holding on that level none the less he will receive his due reward, and it is just the right thing to do.

[aussiebochur]

For what purpose? The "Issur" was already done, what did that accomplish?

Hergesh

See Remo (YD 81:7) that one must be careful with Kashrus even with regards to someone who is not a Bar Chiyuv (such as a baby), because the food becomes part of him!

I didn't make a halachik decision, it was a reaction that was made on a chasiddishe hergesh as I said.  All those years of hearing about how cholov stam will be m'tamtem lev' v'moach and all that good stuff.

[YankyDoodle]

Hmmm.... I wonder if R' moshe ח"ו would bring internet into his home? Also wasn't R' Moshe an extremely humble person who was extremely makpid on bein adom l'chaveiro, and how about shmiras einayim etc;. Do you only follow r' moshe when it suits you. Are you a machmir or are you just a torah lekanter guy?

I think I finally realized what's going on here! Nobody likes to be told that what they're doing isn't good enough... Especially when one's right to a good Kit Kat bar or Reeses Pieces is at stake! That's why when someone brings a direct quote from the only (yes major but only) rabbi to allow the use of chalav stam saying that he would G-d forbid never use ch"st it rubs some of you the wrong way. Yes he did allow it (under certain circumstances, which is a diff story as was argued earlier in the thread) but that does not make s/o who keeps ch"y a machmir it makes ch"st a kula! No one cares what you wonder about R Moshe's potential internet usage, the point is he said this clearly is that not enough for you to accept as well (or at least accept that others accept it!?)

[bubkiz]

Back to OT: I think the most effective way to handle this manner is to petition the OU to make it their policy that airline food caterers serve Chalov Yisroel only. Probably a lot easier to reason with then the airline.

Consumer Hotline:
212-613-8241
kosherq@ou.org

[Chaikel]

Probably a lot easier to reason with then the airline.

Totally disagree. What reason do they have to make such a ridiculous policy. If they a machshir these things why would they force companies not to use them?

[Mocha]

Totally disagree. What reason do they have to make such a ridiculous policy. If they a machshir these things why would they force companies not to use them?

By making a policy like that they're not denouncing Ch"S. They would just be accommodating a large section of people that they're "trying" to cater to. No one will deny that their trying to cater to the frum community as a whole.

[bubkiz]

Totally disagree. What reason do they have to make such a ridiculous policy. If they a machshir these things why would they force companies not to use them?

Because the reason that they allow Chalav Stam is because a significant percent of American Jewry relies in Rav Moshe's Heter. However, they strive to service all Jews, and if they receive requests from people who want Chalav Yisroel they may change their policy. ane...

[Mocha]

Because the reason that they allow Chalav Stam is because a significant percent of American Jewry relies in Rav Moshe's Heter. However, they strive to service all Jews, and if they receive requests from people who want Chalav Yisroel they may change their policy. ane...

You basically said +1 in other words

[Chaikel]

By making a policy like that they're not denouncing Ch"S. They would just be accommodating a large section of people that they're "trying" to cater to. No one will deny that their trying to cater to the frum community as a whole.

Because the reason that they allow Chalav Stam is because a significant percent of American Jewry relies in Rav Moshe's Heter. However, they strive to service all Jews, and if they receive requests from people who want Chalav Yisroel they may change their policy. ane...

I would agree with you if you were talking about the caterer. I don't see why this is OU's prerogative.

[LAXtraveler]

I would agree with you if you were talking about the caterer. I don't see why this is OU's prerogative.

Me too. I said that earlier in this thread. It seems like the issue should be taken up with the caterer (MilMar?) not OU, in this situation.

[whYME]

I would agree with you if you were talking about the caterer. I don't see why this is OU's prerogative.

Not that I want to go around in circles, but to quote dirah from earlier in the thread:

However, OU is supposed to be in the business of upholding Halacha, and putting that before financial considerations. And the fact that OU (as in, the Kashrus agency) took a (controversial) stand regarding Hamotzi / Mezonos shows that they are willing to venture into areas which have nothing to do with Kashrus at all. So, why not take a stand on an issue which is more relevant to Kashrus?

[Chaikel]

Not that I want to go around in circles, but to quote dirah from earlier in the thread:

IMHO, and possibly the opinion of the OU as well, Mezonos is much more clear cut than ChS. It is very hard to be matir mezonos on any roll included in a "meal", while with ChS, yesh al mi lismoch

[elikay]

It is very hard to be matir mezonos on any roll included in a "meal"

+1
VERY important point, which many people seem to miss. When being kovea seuda you always wash and Bentch.

[YG]

Chalav stam is at worst a din d'rabanan.

For what purpose? The "Issur" was already done, what did that accomplish?

See Y"D 81,7

RaM"A
(re: nursing a baby)
"for milk from an idolater is metamtem haleiv (of the baby consuming the milk) and will give the child a bad nature, therefore a nursing (mother) should not eat anything prohibited, nor should the child, for all this will harm him in his older age."

Ta"Z - s"k 12
"all this (particularity about not having a child nursed by a lady that has eaten issue) applies even in circumstances where the lady was permitted to eat (normally) prohibited food for reasons of pikuach nefesh (in which case she was halachically obligated to eat it ) nevertheless she should not nurse the child"

Sha"Ch- s"k 25
"if she is sick in a fashion that we are obligated to feed her (normally) prohibited foods, the father of the child should not give the child to be nursed by her"

Sha"Ch - s"k 26
"even though when a child eats an issur d'Rabbonnon the father is not obligated to separate him (from the transgression).....this is regarding the Halacha (of chinuch), however he should separate him for it will harm him in his older age for it is metamtem the heart and will cause him (to have) a negative disposition"

[Chaikel]

See Y"D 81,7

RaM"A
(re: nursing a baby)
"for milk from an idolater is metamtem haleiv (of the baby consuming the milk) and will give the child a bad nature, therefore a nursing (mother) should not eat anything prohibited, nor should the child, for all this will harm him in his older age."

Ta"Z - s"k 12
"all this (particularity about not having a child nursed by a lady that has eaten issue) applies even in circumstances where the lady was permitted to eat (normally) prohibited food for reasons of pikuach nefesh (in which case she was halachically obligated to eat it ) nevertheless she should not nurse the child"

Sha"Ch- s"k 25
"if she is sick in a fashion that we are obligated to feed her (normally) prohibited foods, the father of the child should not give the child to be nursed by her"

Sha"Ch - s"k 26
"even though when a child eats an issur d'Rabbonnon the father is not obligated to separate him (from the transgression).....this is regarding the Halacha (of chinuch), however he should separate him for it will harm him in his older age for it is metamtem the heart and will cause him (to have) a negative disposition"

But why would throwing up help. According to the Shmiras Haguf after a short period of time has elapsed, throwing up will not prevent timtum halev.

[YG]

But why would throwing up help. According to the Shmiras Haguf after a short period of time has elapsed, throwing up will not prevent timtum halev.

How long is "a short period of time"?
If you could provide a reference it would be appreciated.

[Chaikel]

How long is "a short period of time"?
If you could provide a reference it would be appreciated.

He didn't specify, he just said the only way it would accomplish anything was if it was done immediately without any time passing

[YG]

Reference.....?
(as in where, not just which sefer)

Are you referring to the (two volume) Sefer "Shmiras haguf v'hanefesh"?

[Chaikel]

Reference.....?
(as in where, not just which sefer)

Are you referring to the (two volume) Sefer "Shmiras haguf v'hanefesh"?

Yes. Don't know if it's in the sefer, I asked him directly (thought he was a good source for timtum info)