Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 94665 times)

Offline YG

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #140 on: February 05, 2012, 02:11:43 PM »
Gotcha.
I ask because his Sefer is a likkut - a gathering of information from various seforim, and much of it is sourced from late acharonim, and not all the sources he quotes are necessarily universally 'ongennumen'.

I am a huge fan of the Sefer, after seeing it lying around and browsing through it on several occasions I made a special request for my local seforim dealer to get it in.
It's well referenced - crucial for a good likkut (both in terms of deeming it reliable, and of allowing follow up analysis of sources), and he has relatively comprehensive footnotes on the page.  IMHO these two characteristics often make the difference between a nice book, and an effective and (at least) somewhat complete piece of work.

However, a significant amount of what he writes in the 'pnim' comes from late acharonim that are not necessarily universally accepted as 'primary poskim' which is why I asked for a reference, as Id be interested to see the details behind the statement.

AFAIU, timtum haleiv is generally associated with the fact that the issur that is ingested is subsequently digested and absorbed into the bloodstream, and molecules obtained from the food are then incorporated into the body of the individual - "naaseh dam u'bossor mi'bsoro", resulting in a body which is partly built out of issur, and therefore has a reduced sensitivity to Kedusha. It would presumably follow, that regarding removal of issur from an individual's digestive system,, 'the sooner the better', and the longer it stays, the more of it will be absorbed into the bloodstream and then incorporated into the body, and the greater the degree of timtum haleiv likely to result.  It seems doubtful to me that it's a matter of seconds before complete timtum haleiv has been achieved, and I would relate to a proposal that it's a significant period of time before food has completely moved on from the stomach to the duodenum (first part of the small intestine) and is unable to be removed from the system by regurgitation, which would prevent it from being absorbed.

Regarding the time after eating that one can still make a brocho achrono, AFAIK the practical gauge is 'as long as one still feels some of the satisfaction resulting from the consumption of the food' which is a halachic indication that some of it still remains in the stomach.  I write this offhand, I'm not currently next to a sefer that I can confirm and quote, but if this is indeed the case, it would indicate that food can remain in the stomach for significant periods of time after consumption - depending on the variety and quantity of food consumed, and if the cheshbon about absorption and incorporation of issur into the body causing timtum haleiv is accurate, it may indicate a to'eles in removing issur from the system as long as it is still possible.

There are gaps as not all of what i wrote is referenced to a Torah source at the moment, but it's what is on my mind offhand.

Offline Armadillo

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2012, 07:10:28 PM »
Sorry to get in late in the game, but I just read through the first ten pages and found it more enjoyable than the pilot posting that has been referenced elsewhere as the most addictive/enjoyable post ever.
My thoughts:
a) I don't think the target is OU here - more effective with airline or caterer
b) which is actually my main point, people really just have to learn more halacha. If you'd learn through the halachos of handwashing for bread and what constitutes bread, you'd come to the inevitable conclusion that the rolls are hamotzi mema nafshach (whether called such or not) and the simple solution to difficulty washing on plane is not to wash - this is something clearly discussed in hilchos netilas yodayim - and one would just wrap one's hands in a davar hamafsik and make hamotzi and bentch which are not dependent on whether one washed but on whether it is bread.

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2012, 07:16:09 PM »
My post was getting too long and this is an aside: The OU's official policy has always been to be someich on Rav Moshe for the Chalav Companies shaila; as far as the mezonos roll which is a more recent phenomenon, their psak obviously follows their current posek in residence Rav Belsky shlita (may he live and be well) who writes very strongly in Shut Shulchan Halevi against the mistaken concept of the mezonos roll and very thoroughly debunks it in a longer piece at the end of the sefer.

Offline smart brit

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #143 on: February 28, 2012, 09:26:38 PM »
wow just found out that on ddf we have some serious talmedi chahomim on here i'm running to learn now lol but reading this thread is serious entertainment so thanks everyone

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #144 on: February 29, 2012, 03:04:15 AM »
My problem is that a vast majority of orthodox-non-usa-jews stick to cholov yisroel.

The flights in questions are only international ones, where the percentage of non-usa jews is probably quite elevated.

Why deprive them of a meal? It gets even worse with countries that don't allow you to import fresh food...

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #145 on: February 29, 2012, 06:13:12 AM »
a) I don't think the target is OU here - more effective with airline or caterer
In practice, the airlines won't change because they will regard it as too much of a headache. A change would involve reworking catering contracts, which would be a real pain in the neck, especially as many airlines do not order the kosher meals directly, but rather rely on their contracted general caterer to procure the Kosher meals. Making the change would also not really improve the airline's bottom line. So, from the airline's point of view - it ain't happening.

The caterer won't change because they know that the airline is not going to push the issue for the above reasons, and changing will not improve their bottom line either.

O-U should take a stand, because they represent the mainstream interests of Kosher consumers, of which Cholov-Yisroel is a part. O-U certifies many products as Cholov Yisroel, so they obviously accept this to be a valid mainstream standard.
If so, why wouldn't they require airline meals to be Cholov Yisroel? They know that it will not change any other way! The only reason I can imagine is because it would not improve their bottom line.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 06:43:18 AM by dirah »

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #146 on: February 29, 2012, 06:40:44 AM »
Reb Moishe’s Hetter relies on governmental supervision and enforcement.
Someone just forwarded me some correspondence between Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum (Nirbater Rav) and the FDA, NY State Department of Agriculture (Kosher Law Enforcement), and the WI State Department of Agriculture. It raises some interesting questions about the extent of current governmental supervision and enforcement.

FDA: “Milk in the US is considered of bovine source unless otherwise stated on the label. We don’t test for other species milk contamination, but States assure that the milk does not contain any unapproved additives. I believe that DNA testing could certify species but that is not something we have a concern about. Penalties are on an individual basis.”

NY State Department of Agriculture: “We have no known test for other species milk and as long as the milk in a producers tank meets the Standard of Identity for milk and obviously we did not see anyone physically putting milk from another species in the tank, we have no additional requirements … We do not monitor milk for other species.”
Unless we see someone adding other milk from a different species to the milk, we would never be able to detect it."

WI State Department of Agriculture: “No we do not test for mixing of the milk with other species.”
“After speaking to our Lab Evaluation Office … it appears as though there is no definite test to distinguish species.”

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #147 on: February 29, 2012, 12:26:36 PM »
I just love the irony that the same people that wouldn't trust the government (at least as it is in 2012 in the USA, maybe things were different back in the day) with a dime of their money, but yet will rely on them with their yiddishkeit to make sure there aren't any unscrupulous farmers in the entire country.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #148 on: February 29, 2012, 12:35:27 PM »
I just love the irony that the same people that wouldn't trust the government (at least as it is in 2012 in the USA, maybe things were different back in the day) with a dime of their money, but yet will rely on them with their yiddishkeit to make sure there aren't any unscrupulous farmers in the entire country.
Would you trust any OU mashgiach with a $1000 loan?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #149 on: February 29, 2012, 12:56:13 PM »
Would you trust any OU mashgiach with a $1000 loan?
???
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline MarkS

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #150 on: February 29, 2012, 01:01:24 PM »
Would you trust any OU mashgiach with a $1000 loan?

[well known story] Insert story with Rav Yisroel Salanter here[/end]

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #151 on: February 29, 2012, 01:03:53 PM »
[well known story] Insert story with Rav Yisroel Salanter here[/end]
I don't know it.
Just saying many things in beirut seifkos are sufficient in halacha even though a rational person would never rely on them for something personal.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #152 on: February 29, 2012, 01:06:41 PM »
I don't know it.
Just saying many things in beirut seifkos are sufficient in halacha even though a rational person would never rely on them for something personal.
It is told that Rav Yisrael Salanter was once traveling and he had to stay overnight at an inn. The inn was full. The inn keeper ran out of meat. The inn keeper did not personally know Rav Yisrael Salanter, but based on appearances, judged him to be a knowledgeable Jew. He approached Rav Yisrael and asked "Perhaps you can slaughter a chicken for me in my back yard?" Rav Yisrael, however excused himself, telling the innkeeper that he was not a certified shochet [ritual slaughterer] and could not help him.

The next morning Rav Yisrael proposed to the innkeeper that he invest in a financial investment that he felt would yield tremendous profit for the innkeeper. "Give me X amount of rubles and I will give you a great return on your money."

The innkeeper responded, "I should give you my money? You are a complete stranger to me. I don't know you in the least."

Rav Yisrael admonished, "Last night you did not know me any better. Based only on my looks and my dress you assumed that you could trust my shechitah. But today when I asked you to invest money with me, you suddenly need to check me out!"

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #153 on: February 29, 2012, 01:09:50 PM »
It is told that Rav Yisrael Salanter was once traveling and he had to stay overnight at an inn. The inn was full. The inn keeper ran out of meat. The inn keeper did not personally know Rav Yisrael Salanter, but based on appearances, judged him to be a knowledgeable Jew. He approached Rav Yisrael and asked "Perhaps you can slaughter a chicken for me in my back yard?" Rav Yisrael, however excused himself, telling the innkeeper that he was not a certified shochet [ritual slaughterer] and could not help him.

The next morning Rav Yisrael proposed to the innkeeper that he invest in a financial investment that he felt would yield tremendous profit for the innkeeper. "Give me X amount of rubles and I will give you a great return on your money."

The innkeeper responded, "I should give you my money? You are a complete stranger to me. I don't know you in the least."

Rav Yisrael admonished, "Last night you did not know me any better. Based only on my looks and my dress you assumed that you could trust my shechitah. But today when I asked you to invest money with me, you suddenly need to check me out!"
thx
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Dan

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #154 on: February 29, 2012, 01:12:13 PM »
It is told that Rav Yisrael Salanter was once traveling and he had to stay overnight at an inn. The inn was full. The inn keeper ran out of meat. The inn keeper did not personally know Rav Yisrael Salanter, but based on appearances, judged him to be a knowledgeable Jew. He approached Rav Yisrael and asked "Perhaps you can slaughter a chicken for me in my back yard?" Rav Yisrael, however excused himself, telling the innkeeper that he was not a certified shochet [ritual slaughterer] and could not help him.

The next morning Rav Yisrael proposed to the innkeeper that he invest in a financial investment that he felt would yield tremendous profit for the innkeeper. "Give me X amount of rubles and I will give you a great return on your money."

The innkeeper responded, "I should give you my money? You are a complete stranger to me. I don't know you in the least."

Rav Yisrael admonished, "Last night you did not know me any better. Based only on my looks and my dress you assumed that you could trust my shechitah. But today when I asked you to invest money with me, you suddenly need to check me out!"
Yup, al derech that.  I'm not speaking halachically, but surely you must admit the irony is there...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Armadillo

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #155 on: March 01, 2012, 02:43:36 AM »
Contrary to dirah's opinion, there is more to R' Moshe's psak than government supervision. It's very easy to pick apart the well publicized (and ridiculed) parts of the tshuvah, but R' Moshe is actually being more machmir than the previous gedolim who were matir, namely the Pri Chodosh (and others) who lived several hundred years prior. There is a basic machlokes on the nature of the issur of chalav akum. Suffice it to say, without giving a shiur on the topic, there are other things going into the heter, including the fact that it's basically not possible/practical for the company to add other milk (we're not talking about private people in their backyard). Until one goes through the sugya and the teshuva's of R' Moshe, it's worse than a nooB arguing with Dan about which program gives you the best redemption value. I grew up makpid on Cholov Yisroel  (and I am today as well) but after learning the sugya (not hearing a shiur by someone with an agenda) I have come to realize how strong both sides are [Chabad is unique in that they consider this to be 'almost a deoraisa' based on the ShA'H] and now respect other's people's choice to not be makpid (however ignorant they may be of the actual issues).
To summarize, it's not the wonderful trustworthy American government R' Moshe (and everyone drinking 'chalav companies' (sic)) is relying on, that's on top of the very strong shita of various achronim about the nature of the issur. So no, Dan, not ironic.

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #156 on: March 01, 2012, 02:53:26 AM »
Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available. If you're on an airplane and are served chalav companies Rav Moshe would be matir lechatchila. (Bal nefesh isn't the server it's the eater.)

Online AsherO

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #157 on: March 01, 2012, 03:25:40 AM »
Contrary to dirah's opinion, there is more to R' Moshe's psak than government supervision. It's very easy to pick apart the well publicized (and ridiculed) parts of the tshuvah, but R' Moshe is actually being more machmir than the previous gedolim who were matir, namely the Pri Chodosh (and others) who lived several hundred years prior. There is a basic machlokes on the nature of the issur of chalav akum. Suffice it to say, without giving a shiur on the topic, there are other things going into the heter, including the fact that it's basically not possible/practical for the company to add other milk (we're not talking about private people in their backyard). Until one goes through the sugya and the teshuva's of R' Moshe, it's worse than a nooB arguing with Dan about which program gives you the best redemption value. I grew up makpid on Cholov Yisroel  (and I am today as well) but after learning the sugya (not hearing a shiur by someone with an agenda) I have come to realize how strong both sides are [Chabad is unique in that they consider this to be 'almost a deoraisa' based on the ShA'H] and now respect other's people's choice to not be makpid (however ignorant they may be of the actual issues).
To summarize, it's not the wonderful trustworthy American government R' Moshe (and everyone drinking 'chalav companies' (sic)) is relying on, that's on top of the very strong shita of various achronim about the nature of the issur. So no, Dan, not ironic.

:D

Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available. If you're on an airplane and are served chalav companies Rav Moshe would be matir lechatchila. (Bal nefesh isn't the server it's the eater.)

Right, becuse noone ever brings sandwiches with them on a plane...  ::) ::) ::)
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Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #158 on: March 01, 2012, 03:28:06 AM »
Contrary to dirah's opinion, there is more to R' Moshe's psak than government supervision.
I am sorry, but you are totally wrong.
It is more than crystal clear from Reb Moshe's Teshuvos that without the government supervising and enforcing, the milk is DEFINITELY Ossur.
I have gone through the Sugya, and spent a lot of time laying out this issue earlier on in the thread.
Your contention is nonsense, and if you want to stand by it, I invite you to support it with a quote from Reb Moshe (without quoting anything of context).

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #159 on: March 01, 2012, 03:35:48 AM »
[Chabad is unique in that they consider this to be 'almost a deoraisa' based on the ShA'H]
Interesting choice of words.
Chabad does not accept this to be a D'Oraiso.
It is just that, in their view, a D'Rabanan is also something to take seriously.
In any case, it might interest you that the Chassam Sofer opines that according to some opinions, Cholov Yisroel is in fact to be regarded as a D'Oraiso.