Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 95656 times)

Online Just A Jew

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Oct 2023
  • Posts: 314
  • Total likes: 599
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #360 on: January 10, 2024, 08:35:37 PM »
That's what leads to tunnels :P

Solution to Lubavitch's leadership problem solved. Put Dan in charge.
Freedom of the press is alive at the US Mint.
- Gallagher

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2922
  • Total likes: 3521
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #361 on: January 10, 2024, 08:37:18 PM »
Solution to Lubavitch's leadership problem solved. Put Dan in charge.

Ok he's now open to accept earlier suggestions to run for president of the USA or being CEO of ElAl.

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30654
  • Total likes: 7944
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #362 on: January 10, 2024, 08:38:55 PM »
Ok he's now open to accept earlier suggestions to run for president of the USA or being CEO of ElAl.

Isn’t he going on a concert tour soon :P
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67728
  • Total likes: 17153
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #363 on: January 10, 2024, 08:39:17 PM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Euclid

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 4921
  • Total likes: 6165
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #364 on: January 10, 2024, 08:49:14 PM »
Duplicate accounts are against DDF rules.
Goodbye.
But Just A Nother account lives on ;)

Duplicate account violations are like missing taillights. Only get a ticket for it if you are speeding too

Offline gutlib

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2022
  • Posts: 416
  • Total likes: 238
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #365 on: January 10, 2024, 09:53:38 PM »
That's what leads to tunnels :P
if it were your brother would you ban him or would you explain. etc.?

Offline gutlib

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2022
  • Posts: 416
  • Total likes: 238
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #366 on: January 10, 2024, 11:00:21 PM »

this is misleading info about COVID-19, and can lead to a ban, we are now on the other side of the circle :P

Offline monsey yid

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: May 2018
  • Posts: 242
  • Total likes: 37
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #367 on: January 10, 2024, 11:22:08 PM »
Why did you banned him? I had my popcorn bag ready 😀
If you like my post give me a like!

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67728
  • Total likes: 17153
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #368 on: January 10, 2024, 11:23:33 PM »
Why did you banned him? I had my popcorn bag ready 😀
Parve or dairy?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yawn

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: May 2022
  • Posts: 251
  • Total likes: 299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #369 on: January 10, 2024, 11:27:18 PM »

Offline justaregularguy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2014
  • Posts: 1494
  • Total likes: 925
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Not Brooklyn
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #370 on: January 10, 2024, 11:42:59 PM »
Cholov Stam.
I wash on popcorn idk bout you
nothings impossible- the word itself says Im possible

Online yfr bachur

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 1103
  • Total likes: 1295
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Yerusholayim -> נחליאל
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #371 on: January 11, 2024, 03:26:29 AM »
I take umbrage at the misconception brought up constantly that Reb Moshe was a da'as yochid on milk from companies in the US.
1. Reb Moshe was not mechadesh the heter. It was an accepted psak before he arrived. Rabbonim were meikel, albeit never wrote Teshuvos.

When R' Moshe came to the US in 1937, pure milk regulations were at most 30ish years old, but mostly (at the federal level) fairly new from within the last decade - New Deal era laws.
To call whatever psak there was from whatever rabbanim were there "accepted psak", when the metzius of commercial/industrial milk production and its regulation was itself so new...
There's no "mesorah from past generations" for anyone to know about.
There's also no mekor for "doros of erlicher yidden" in the US... How many medakdikim in halacha were there in the US pre 1900? a couple of hundred? total since Jamestown?
My family has been in the US for over 110 years shomer shabbos - One great grandfather was a Rav who did not leave his house on shabbos so he wouldn't see the chillul shabbos.  The other GGF was a shochet - (which wasn't a raaya that he kept shabbos as anyone who knows the metzius could tell you) and then a mocher seforim after he was in a sleigh accident traveling the thousand islands region to shect for people. Go get some books about what the Metzius was...All for the Boss, Lieutenant Birenbaum, Tzidkus stands Forever...
This is just historical ameratzus, plain and simple.
This goes for the sugyas you throw out there too
It is pretty clear that Yidden cross the Williamsburg bridge on Shabbos (opened dec 1903), cover their hair with a sheitel that looks like their own (truly look like their own is a recent invention), shave with a machine (invented in 1915), and say Mezonos on a pretzel (Hard - invented 1850, Soft - last 1800's intro to US).

Regarding
Quote
Rabbonim were meikel, albeit never wrote Teshuvos.
sorry to go modern on you but "pics or it didn't happen". There are hundreds if not thousands of teshuvos written by american rabbanim in the early decades of the 20th century, on many many different topics - and it's reasonable to expect that if there was a "accepted psak" that honestly is quite a chiddush - we would have a written record of it. (my GGF has a long back and forth in his tsuva seforim with Rav Henkin about a chiddush of his regarding the kashrus of stam grape juice - but nothing regarding stam milk... ;))(Hebrewbooks was started to preserve these tshuvos...)
(It's like the assertion that the minhag was always a 72 minute alos. R' Dovid Braunfeld searched hundreds of luachs and seforim written pre-war and older, and didn't find even ONE backing the claim, but the proponents say "it's was the minhag, just not written...???)

The Shulchan Aruch does not mention government supervision.
Correct. It does mention what milk requires in order to be considered "Cholov Yisroel": supervision by a jew.
Anything else is Chalav Akkum.
Putting a name tag on a goy that says "FDA", does not make him a yid.


@Dan I sort of enjoy watching these kind of people making themselves look silly. I think you were a bit quick on the ban button...
sorry, rule 11...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2024, 06:11:41 AM by yfr bachur »

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30654
  • Total likes: 7944
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #372 on: January 11, 2024, 08:31:13 AM »
Duplicate account violations are like missing taillights. Only get a ticket for it if you are speeding too

If you speed you end up seeing DDF in the rearview mirror.

What if you weave in and out of traffic? :P
« Last Edit: January 11, 2024, 08:34:44 AM by AsherO »
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2041
  • Total likes: 2149
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #373 on: January 11, 2024, 09:10:17 AM »
Correct. It does mention what milk requires in order to be considered "Cholov Yisroel": supervision by a jew.
Anything else is Chalav Akkum.
Putting a name tag on a goy that says "FDA", does not make him a yid.
A lot in your post to pick apart, not quite fair to fight with someone who can’t fight back.

Just to focus on the last part, it’s patently absurd to say that Shu’a holds not like Rav Moshe because he says “yid” and FDA is a goy.

But tell him about am haratzus…

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1502
  • Total likes: 1685
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #374 on: January 11, 2024, 09:49:28 AM »
Not quite fair to fight with someone who can’t fight back.

He can always respond from his other account...

Just to focus on the last part, it’s patently absurd to say that Shu’a holds not like Rav Moshe because he says “yid” and FDA is a goy.

Rav Moshe's psak is a chiddush.

What is absurd is to claim that any Rov who didn't write a tshuva in which they disagree should be assumed to agree with Rav Moshe (as the OP seemed to do).

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 2041
  • Total likes: 2149
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #375 on: January 11, 2024, 09:57:12 AM »
He can always respond from his other account...
Not if he doesn’t know his username…
Rav Moshe's psak is a chiddush.
Just because you say so, doesn’t mean it’s true. We’ve discussed this many times, no need to rehash this sensitive topic.
What is absurd is to claim that any Rov who didn't write a tshuva in which they disagree should be assumed to agree with Rav Moshe (as the OP seemed to do).
No idea where you see him saying that, but hey, it’s in style.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17527
  • Total likes: 14502
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #376 on: January 11, 2024, 10:49:37 AM »
He can always respond from his other account...

Not if he doesn’t know his username…

Or if the other account was locked by Mods.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30654
  • Total likes: 7944
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #377 on: January 11, 2024, 10:54:31 AM »
Or if the other account was locked by Mods.

The other account wasn’t speeding :P
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17527
  • Total likes: 14502
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #378 on: January 11, 2024, 11:09:43 AM »
The other account wasn’t speeding
I have no idea what the other account is, but if I needed to guess based on similarities in content it probably was speeding.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yawn

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: May 2022
  • Posts: 251
  • Total likes: 299
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #379 on: January 11, 2024, 11:34:45 AM »
I have no idea what the other account is, but if I needed to guess based on similarities in content it probably was speeding.
Probably would’ve been speeding, but seems like he forgot where he parked.