Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 94755 times)

Offline dirah

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 1277
  • Total likes: 28
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #160 on: March 01, 2012, 03:39:35 AM »
Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available.
But there is the other issue - that Reb Moshe's Psak, despite his unquestionable Gadlus, is virtually a Daas Yochid among the other Poskim of his generation. Why should countless Yidden who follow the Psak of the other Poskim find themselves sidelined on planes.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 03:44:59 AM by dirah »

Offline Armadillo

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 714
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #161 on: March 01, 2012, 03:45:17 AM »
Right, becuse noone ever brings sandwiches with them on a plane...  ::) ::) ::)
I'm obviously talking where you end up in that situation, not to plan it. Anyway, a sandwich isn't a yogurt so that's not called CH'Y available.

Offline Armadillo

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 714
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #162 on: March 01, 2012, 03:48:14 AM »
Interesting choice of words.
Chabad does not accept this to be a D'Oraiso.
As is quite clear from your quote of me, I said almost.
This is due to the strong opinion of the Alter Rebbe on the matter, as I stated previously.

Offline Armadillo

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 714
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #163 on: March 01, 2012, 03:51:25 AM »
Why should countless Yidden who follow the Psak of the other Poskim find themselves sidelined on planes.
My comments were in reference to the shita in general, not at the practice on planes. Caveat emptor and make his voice be heard.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30535
  • Total likes: 7832
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #164 on: March 01, 2012, 04:18:58 AM »
I'm obviously talking where you end up in that situation, not to plan it. Anyway, a sandwich isn't a yogurt so that's not called CH'Y available.

Never heard of cream cheese?
100% of Likes will be donated to support our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael

Offline Galitzyaner

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 2961
  • Total likes: 119
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #165 on: July 29, 2013, 07:41:16 PM »
I've always heard about this letter, but only recently saw it.

For all those in places like NYC and other areas where Cholov Yisroel is readily available who rely on Reb Moshe's hetter, and buy it l'chatchila.

Publicizing it לתועלת הרבים.

Offline Chaikel

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 6812
  • Total likes: 174
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: LH SEN, SPG Plat, Hyatt Plat, Rav Kav Platinum
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #166 on: July 29, 2013, 07:58:04 PM »
I've always heard about this letter, but only recently saw it.

For all those in places like NYC and other areas where Cholov Yisroel is readily available who rely on Reb Moshe's hetter, and buy it l'chatchila.

Publicizing it לתועלת הרבים.
There are many teshuvos from R' Moshe one way or another. R' Dovid, one of the most accepted - if not the most - accepted posek in the US is known to be more maikel than his father. I heard first hand from R' Reuvan's grandson that he asked his grandfather if he should be makpid, and he replied "I'm not frum enough to be makpid, you're for sure not" (RR said he is however personally makpid, as he felt it was appropriate for his shteller)
Create professional looking itineraries.
Check out eliteitinerary.com

Offline A European

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 1519
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Germany
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #167 on: July 29, 2013, 08:23:17 PM »
My father once went with our family  to the mountains in Europe, the owner of the place wasn't Jewish, 

My father told him that PPL in the city say that one of the best milk comes from his farm, and he asked him what is his secret.

So the owner told  him to come with him and showed him a small place with a few DOVOR ACHERL and he told him that he mixed in to the regular milk a little bit of the TRAIFENE milk.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #168 on: July 29, 2013, 08:24:21 PM »
There are many teshuvos from R' Moshe one way or another. R' Dovid, one of the most accepted - if not the most - accepted posek in the US is known to be more maikel than his father. I heard first hand from R' Reuvan's grandson that he asked his grandfather if he should be makpid, and he replied "I'm not frum enough to be makpid, you're for sure not" (RR said he is however personally makpid, as he felt it was appropriate for his shteller)
Are you sure there is a teshuva from R Moshe to be meikel?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline smee123

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 598
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #169 on: July 29, 2013, 09:32:45 PM »
My father once went with our family  to the mountains in Europe, the owner of the place wasn't Jewish, 

My father told him that PPL in the city say that one of the best milk comes from his farm, and he asked him what is his secret.

So the owner told  him to come with him and showed him a small place with a few DOVOR ACHERL and he told him that he mixed in to the regular milk a little bit of the TRAIFENE milk.
Wow!
They say that's really not a problem in america because of the law/USDA.

Offline robi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 1617
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #170 on: July 29, 2013, 09:36:21 PM »
Wow!
They say that's really not a problem in america because of the law/USDA.
thats why r Moshe was only matir in america
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, then loved for who I'm not"

Offline A European

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 1519
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Germany
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #171 on: July 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM »
Wow!
They say that's really not a problem in america because of the law/USDA.
You are wrong.

It's also the law in Europe!!!

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #172 on: July 29, 2013, 10:02:11 PM »
You are wrong.

It's also the law in Europe!!!
R Moshe's psak was specifically that there is a greater fear of the law in the USA.

Either way your story is not relevant, as halacha does not require absolute knowledge.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline A European

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 1519
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Germany
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #173 on: July 29, 2013, 10:16:42 PM »
R Moshe's psak was specifically that there is a greater fear of the law in the USA.

Either way your story is not relevant, as halacha does not require absolute knowledge.

What are you trying to say?
HALACHA doesn't require CHOLOV ISROEL?

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #174 on: July 29, 2013, 10:34:43 PM »
What are you trying to say?
HALACHA doesn't require CHOLOV ISROEL?
According to R Moshe, in the USA, halacha does not require cholov yisroel.

Your story is also not fully relevant since in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka, etc. So the fact that it's technically possible for the milk to be from a pig is irrelevant.  As a matter of fact the issur of cholov stam is not a regular safek that we are afraid it comes from a trief animal, there was a special takana to be chosheish.

Side note: I keep cholov yisroel.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14958
  • Total likes: 2421
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #175 on: July 29, 2013, 10:39:01 PM »
You are wrong.

It's also the law in Europe!!!
R Moshe's psak wasn't because of the law, it was because of the level of enforcement and the public fear of the law.

Btw, everyone pushing the 'bal nefesh yachmir' card, that only applies when Chalav Yisroel is available. If you're on an airplane and are served chalav companies Rav Moshe would be matir lechatchila. (Bal nefesh isn't the server it's the eater.)
The Baal Nefesh Yachmir card just means even R Moshe held it is better not to eat it. You're trying to be medayek a gedar in chumras from R Moshe's words...
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline A European

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 1519
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: Germany
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #176 on: July 29, 2013, 10:42:59 PM »

Side note: I keep cholov yisroel.
if you want to be melamed zechus on someone else, so I agree to whatever you said.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16913
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #177 on: July 30, 2013, 12:34:06 AM »
public fear of the law.
Does that still exist today?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline dirah

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 1277
  • Total likes: 28
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #178 on: July 30, 2013, 06:31:40 AM »
R Moshe's psak was specifically that there is a greater fear of the law in the USA.
R Moshe's psak wasn't because of the law, it was because of the level of enforcement and the public fear of the law.
Reb Moshe does constantly use the words חלב הקאמפאניעס במדינתינו, but I do not recall him explicitly saying that “there is a greater fear of the law in the USA” than elsewhere. I would be glad if you could provide a source/quote.
Also, Chelkas Yaakov argues that this is a reason to be Machmir, since someone who is accustomed to be Meikal in USA will not realize that he needs to be Machmir when travelling. A similar sentiment was already expressed by the Tzemach Tzedek, albeit not with regards to the USA, obviously.
Even in the USA, Reb Moshe emphatically prohibited milk purchased directly from the dairy farmers, and only allowed it to be purchased from the companies. How many people know that?

Either way your story is not relevant, as halacha does not require absolute knowledge.
Your story is also not fully relevant since in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka, etc. So the fact that it's technically possible for the milk to be from a pig is irrelevant.  As a matter of fact the issur of cholov stam is not a regular safek that we are afraid it comes from a trief animal, there was a special takana to be chosheish.
 
You words are disingenuous. The איסור in ש"ס ופוסקים is known as חלב שחלבו עכו"ם ואין ישראל רואהו.
Most Achronim accept that Chazal mandated a higher standard than elsewhere, and there has to be actual seeing, or something on that level. [Even Reb Moshe holds of this to some degree.] The fact that “in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka” is not applicable to Chalav Yisroel, because of this higher standard mandated by Chazal. Sure, you can claim that Reb Moshe (and his followers / successors) were Meikel in this regard, but don’t pretend that every other Poisek doesn't exist.

R Moshe's psak wasn't because of the law, it was because of the level of enforcement and the public fear of the law.
Does that still exist today?
Mishneh Halachos claims that it doesn’t. [One interesting point he makes is that no self-respecting Frum person would rely on “Kosher Laws” to accept that the meat a butcher was selling is Kosher.]
A while ago, there was circulating an email exchange between Rabbi Aron Teitelbaum (?) and some State and Federal agencies, who went on record saying that there is no real government oversight in this regard.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 06:36:12 AM by dirah »

Offline Galitzyaner

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 2961
  • Total likes: 119
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #179 on: July 30, 2013, 06:45:08 AM »
There are many teshuvos from R' Moshe one way or another.
IIRC, all those "cholov hacompanies... Baal nefesh yachmir etc.." tshuvos are all before this one.
R' Dovid, one of the most accepted - if not the most - accepted posek in the US.....
You're kidding, right?! With all due respect to R' Dovid, you know as well as I do that his stature and standing amongst all circles does not come anywhere near his fathers...
Pleease.  How many/when do people even hear of him?