Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 59724 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #180 on: July 30, 2013, 07:26:51 AM »
Reb Moshe does constantly use the words חלב הקאמפאניעס במדינתינו, but I do not recall him explicitly saying that “there is a greater fear of the law in the USA” than elsewhere. I would be glad if you could provide a source/quote.
מדינתנו = USA.

'זה שאם יערבו יענשו ויצטרכו לסגור העסק שלהם שהוא הרוחה של כמה אלפים והממשלה משגחת אליה,



You words are disingenuous. The איסור in ש"ס ופוסקים is known as חלב שחלבו עכו"ם ואין ישראל רואהו.
Most Achronim accept that Chazal mandated a higher standard than elsewhere, and there has to be actual seeing, or something on that level. [Even Reb Moshe holds of this to some degree.] The fact that “in halacha we can rely on things that are not absolute proof, roiv, eidem, chazaka” is not applicable to Chalav Yisroel, because of this higher standard mandated by Chazal. Sure, you can claim that Reb Moshe (and his followers / successors) were Meikel in this regard, but don’t pretend that every other Poisek doesn't exist.

I was merely pointing out the sentimental story has no halchic relevance, since we do not require absolute proof.

By cholov yisroel, even according to the most stringent poskim, we do no't require absolute knowledge. Absolute knowledge would be impossible without the consumer himself witnessing it.

One interesting point he makes is that no self-respecting Frum person would rely on “Kosher Laws” to accept that the meat a butcher was selling is Kosher
Au Contraire the level of beriur is actually less for meat than cholov yisroel, because of said takana. The reason it would be unreliable is because  shecita is more complicated than milking a cow.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #181 on: July 30, 2013, 07:35:27 AM »
http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

Interesting that no mention of this.
iv heard that reb eliyashiv held they must be separated out.
CMIIW but no other hashgach relies on these heterim, even the rabanut.
obviously, saying that this is a problem would be massive hefseded merubeh for the OU corporation, they didn't have a choice but to make it mutter.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #182 on: July 30, 2013, 07:39:26 AM »

obviously, saying that this is a problem would be massive hefseded merubeh for the OU corporation, they didn't have a choice but to make it mutter.
One would think if all milk needed supervision they would make a lot more money.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #183 on: July 30, 2013, 07:42:25 AM »
One would think if all milk needed supervision they would make a lot more money.
thousands of companies wouldnt bother with the expense.

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #184 on: July 30, 2013, 08:56:28 AM »
מדינתנו = USA.
'זה שאם יערבו יענשו ויצטרכו לסגור העסק שלהם שהוא הרוחה של כמה אלפים והממשלה משגחת אליה,
That is your interpretation, without firm proof, or even indication, from the Teshuvah.
Anyone could just as easily, or perhaps more easily, (and in fact they do,) apply this to any first-world country with robust laws etc, such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand to name a few, even though there are bound to be subtle differences with regards to "greater fear of the law".
In any case, I think anyone who thinks that Americans in 2013 have a "greater fear of the law" than other (first-world) countries around the world has their head in the sand.


By cholov yisroel, even according to the most stringent poskim, we do no't require absolute knowledge. Absolute knowledge would be impossible without the consumer himself witnessing it.
The conumer does not need to witness it himself, but he needs to know that a Yid witnessed it himself.
There may be certain Umdanos which Shulchan Oruch and Nosei Keilim say are so powerful that it is as if a Yid saw it, but this particular Hetter does approach that level, which is why all noteworthy Poskim of the past generation rejected this Hetter, besides for Reb Moshe and his family/students.
As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, my point is not to attack Reb Moshe's Hetter from those who follow it, נהרא נהרא ופשטיה.
I do have a MAJOR problem with those who "market" Reb Moshe's Hetter as "normative" Yiddishkeit, and Cholov Yisroel as some Super-Mega-Chumra-Hiddur meant for Prushim and the like.

Au Contraire the level of beriur is actually less for meat than cholov yisroel, because of said takana. The reason it would be unreliable is because  shecita is more complicated than milking a cow.
I hear you, but that is not true.
Part of the reason (or probably most of the reason) that people would not trust the butcher is not just because of the standard of the Shchittah, but because of a doubt whether it was shechted at all.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 08:59:50 AM by dirah »

Offline Ergel

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #185 on: July 30, 2013, 09:37:40 AM »
http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

Interesting that no mention of this.
iv heard that reb eliyashiv held they must be separated out.
CMIIW but no other hashgach relies on these heterim, even the rabanut.
Are you sure?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #186 on: July 30, 2013, 01:06:08 PM »
Are you sure?
Re Rav Elyashiv part im sure.
Re rabanut: they do not use cholov stam period (powdered milk is different) so they always have a mashgiach anyway...friend of mine was a milking mashgiach in arizona for tenuva and strause, they took out the DA cows.

This sheila is a serious sheila, much more serious than C"S, there is no "Godol Hador" that I know of that was matir it...

Offline shmuelb

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #187 on: July 31, 2013, 10:02:15 AM »
http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/milk-from-a-possibly-treif-cow/

Interesting that no mention of this.
iv heard that reb eliyashiv held they must be separated out.
CMIIW but no other hashgach relies on these heterim, even the rabanut.
obviously, saying that this is a problem would be massive hefseded merubeh for the OU corporation, they didn't have a choice but to make it mutter.

Please give a little respect.
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline flatbush guy

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #188 on: July 31, 2013, 01:28:38 PM »
I find it interesting that R'Moshes meikel psak about cholov yisroel is not "relied upon" in some circles (what I mean really is attacked)while in serious life and death issues R'Moshe is seen as one of the biggest poskim.
Cholov akum is ossur mederabonnon.The din in shulchan oruch is that one does need to actually see the milking rather that the milker knows that the mashgiach may come in at any time known as "mirsas", THEREFORE R'Moshes psak is really not a big chidush, since the government supervision and laws would be as good.
Also,I think that many rabbonim where maskim with R'Moshe.
Also the Chazon Ish held that powdered milk is ok  if i'm not mistaken and that is what cholov akum products are made of.
Bekitser, hamachmir tovo olov berocho.
To me what's interesting is why chodosh, is seen as no problem when it is ossur medeoraysa according to most rishoinim even in chutz lo'oretz. (i think r'moshe was also meikel here)

I don't know why this issue has become so controversial

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #189 on: July 31, 2013, 01:35:27 PM »
Also the Chazon Ish held that powdered milk is ok  if i'm not mistaken and that is what cholov akum products are made of.

R Tzvi Pesach Frank was mattir, the Chazon Ish was not mattir. The heter is completely different from R Moshe's.

Since R TPF was mattier lechatichla, and R Moshe said it is better not to rely on his heter, I eat powdered milk but not regular milk. I've actually been quite curious what Frozen Yogurt (16 Handles, etc) is made out of.... anyone?

I don't know why this issue has become so controversial
Some would say there are a lot of people who have unfortunately been brought up with the notion that being frum is more important that observing the Torah.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 01:39:01 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Chaikel

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #190 on: July 31, 2013, 04:04:12 PM »
Some would say there are a lot of people who have unfortunately been brought up with the notion that being frum is more important that observing the Torah.

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Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #191 on: July 31, 2013, 07:57:50 PM »
I find it interesting that R'Moshes meikel psak about cholov yisroel is not "relied upon" in some circles (what I mean really is attacked)while in serious life and death issues R'Moshe is seen as one of the biggest poskim.
What is not to get?
He was very Meikal with Cholov, and very Machmir with regards to Pikuach Hanefesh.
[Borrowing on Reb Chaim Brisker's famous vort.]
Cholov akum is ossur mederabonnon.The din in shulchan oruch is that one does need to actually see the milking rather that the milker knows that the mashgiach may come in at any time known as "mirsas", THEREFORE R'Moshes psak is really not a big chidush, since the government supervision and laws would be as good.
I take it you haven't read this whole thread ...
Also,I think that many rabbonim where maskim with R'Moshe.
Please back that up with a list.

Offline shmuelb

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #192 on: August 01, 2013, 08:08:27 AM »
To me what's interesting is why chodosh, is seen as no problem when it is ossur medeoraysa according to most rishoinim even in chutz lo'oretz. (i think r'moshe was also meikel here)

That is why some people are meikel with Chalav Company but machir on Yashan.
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #193 on: August 01, 2013, 01:31:29 PM »

In any case, I think anyone who thinks that Americans in 2013 have a "greater fear of the law" than other (first-world) countries around the world has their head in the sand.

.The din in shulchan oruch is that one does need to actually see the milking rather that the milker knows that the mashgiach may come in at any time known as "mirsas", THEREFORE R'Moshes psak is really not a big chidush, since the government supervision and laws would be as good.

The conumer does not need to witness it himself, but he needs to know that a Yid witnessed it himself.
There may be certain Umdanos which Shulchan Oruch and Nosei Keilim say are so powerful that it is as if a Yid saw it , but this particular Hetter does approach that level, which is why all noteworthy Poskim of the past generation rejected this Hetter, besides for Reb Moshe and his family/students.


I recently learnt the sugya of cholov akum (albeit not lehalacha lemaisa) and it seems to me that Flatbush guy makes a good point,

Although the Takana was that a jew has to see, the gemara itself says (IIRC) that if the jew can't see but could stand up to see then that would create a fear (mirsus) which is akin to seeing. This fear is nothing other than embarrassment or loss of money, even had the jew caught the gentile in the act of adding pig milk the worst he could do was not buy from him and ruin his business reputation somewhat.

I don't think it's a major chiddush at all to say that a company would be scared of the negative PR and fines they would incur, they don't need to be cowering under their beds to be considered mirsus. Take for instance the recent backlash that ensued when it seemed that Maker's Mark was going to start adding more water to their bourbon, or when a juice company (Naked brand i think) wrote non GMO and it turned out not to be true. I believe that these are exactly like the mirsus of the gemara, maybe worse!

I think the major point of contention is the fact that most early achronim didn't agree to this view. That being said, R' Moshe never felt the need to go with the opinion of the early achronim if his view of the gemara and reshonim differed (see hakdama to igrus moshe) So this is simply one of the numerous cases where R' Moshe argued on most if not all of the major achronim. Because of this there are many who don't rely on R' Moshe's kulos very much (particularly most big Israeli Poskim). But for the majority (of the the pre-brisker yeshiva) Americans who accepted many of R' Moshe's kullos (this may have changed somewhat due to the advent of "the chumra du joir" mentality) this kulla is not very noteworthy or mechudash. R' Moshe goes as far as to say that if someone kept cholov yisroel thinking it was meIkar deDeina he doesn't even need to be matir neder because it is a mistake. (I only wonder why he saidthat a Baal Nefesh should be machmir)

Offline Chaikel

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #194 on: August 01, 2013, 06:49:56 PM »
I recently learnt the sugya of cholov akum (albeit not lehalacha lemaisa) and it seems to me that Flatbush guy makes a good point,

Although the Takana was that a jew has to see, the gemara itself says (IIRC) that if the jew can't see but could stand up to see then that would create a fear (mirsus) which is akin to seeing.
Could you try to get a mareh makom on this
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