Author Topic: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam  (Read 59730 times)

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #195 on: August 01, 2013, 07:00:39 PM »
Although the Takana was that a jew has to see, the gemara itself says (IIRC) that if the jew can't see but could stand up to see then that would create a fear (mirsus) which is akin to seeing. This fear is nothing other than embarrassment or loss of money, even had the jew caught the gentile in the act of adding pig milk the worst he could do was not buy from him and ruin his business reputation somewhat.

I don't think it's a major chiddush at all to say that a company would be scared of the negative PR and fines they would incur, they don't need to be cowering under their beds to be considered mirsus. Take for instance the recent backlash that ensued when it seemed that Maker's Mark was going to start adding more water to their bourbon, or when a juice company (Naked brand i think) wrote non GMO and it turned out not to be true. I believe that these are exactly like the mirsus of the gemara, maybe worse!
מעשה לסתור
 ???

Offline Galitzyaner

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #196 on: August 01, 2013, 07:07:02 PM »
Some would say there are a lot of people who have unfortunately been brought up with the notion that being frum is more important that observing the Torah.
I think we'll need some Rashi and Tosfos for that one.
מעשה לסתור
 ???
Yeah, so much for the mirsus.

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #197 on: August 01, 2013, 07:25:32 PM »
Could you try to get a mareh makom on this
A Braisa the brought in עבודה זרה דף לט עמוד ב:
יושב ישראל בצד עדרו של עובד כוכבים ועובד כוכבים חולב לו ומביא לו, ואינו חושש
The Gemoro explains that the Braisa is talking about this circumstance:
דאיכא דבר טמא בעדרו, וכי קאי חזי ליה, וכי יתיב לא חזי ליה, מהו דתימא כיון דיתיב לא חזי ליה, ניחוש דלמא מייתי ומערב ביה, קמ"ל כיון דכי קאי חזי ליה, אירתותי מירתת ולא מיערב ביה
Mirsus might help for other Issurim, but there is a higher standard of Mirsus for Cholov Yisroel ... I suggest you have a look at Shach YD 115:8, where he concludes that Mirsus is NOT sufficient, and a Yid must actually be watching. With regards to Cholov, Chazal instituted that the Mirsus must be based on the fact that a Yid is in the vicinity of the milking process, and could easily “pop up” and see exactly what is happening. A lesser form of Mirsus is insufficient. 

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #198 on: August 01, 2013, 08:49:41 PM »
מעשה לסתור
 ???
absolutely not, certainly mirsus doesn't mean that there cannot possibly be an instance where someone would do it regardless of the fear.
It simply means that there is a strong deterent. My point was that if we witness the public outcry, the PR backlash of one of those instances it is clear that any american company would try and avoid it at all cause, hence the story backs my point quite well; that even if there isn't an overt fear of the law, there is a mirsus akin to the gemara

As far as the Shach you quoted goes, I want to recheck it again, but it has no bearing on Flatbush Guy's or my point, which is that in Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut, and as for arguing with the shach, that wouldn't bother R' Moshe either.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #199 on: August 01, 2013, 08:55:22 PM »
Some relevant info regarding Rav Moshes heter today: : http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/cholov-stam-an-update-from-the-farm-and-lab/ 

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #200 on: August 01, 2013, 08:59:53 PM »
absolutely not, certainly mirsus doesn't mean that there cannot possibly be an instance where someone would do it regardless of the fear.
It simply means that there is a strong deterent. My point was that if we witness the public outcry, the PR backlash of one of those instances it is clear that any american company would try and avoid it at all cause, hence the story backs my point quite well; that even if there isn't an overt fear of the law, there is a mirsus akin to the gemara
So you are basically saying that two things which are not equal (seeing, strong deterrence) are clearly equal.
With a handle like yours, I am afraid to argue.
But I am curious whether you read this whole thread, as a lot of the discussion last year does away with your “argument”.
As far as the Shach you quoted goes, I want to recheck it again, but it has no bearing on Flatbush Guy's or my point, which is that in Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut, and as for arguing with the shach, that wouldn't bother R' Moshe either.
Your line of thinking is just incredible.
“The Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut” … but the Shach didn’t manage to work that out.

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #201 on: August 01, 2013, 09:05:30 PM »
Some relevant info regarding Rav Moshes heter today: : http://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/cholov-stam-an-update-from-the-farm-and-lab/ 
http://www.hakhel.info/archivesPublicService/ChalavAkumLetter.pdf
See the email exchange with government agencies at the end of the document.
So, who should we believe?

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #202 on: August 01, 2013, 09:27:38 PM »
We shouldnt eat OUD mechashash cholov treifa. Nothing left to debate  :P

Offline Galitzyaner

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #203 on: August 01, 2013, 09:38:13 PM »
http://www.hakhel.info/archivesPublicService/ChalavAkumLetter.pdf
See the email exchange with government agencies at the end of the document.
So, who should we believe?
Thanks for the link.  Great stuff!

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #204 on: August 01, 2013, 09:56:05 PM »
So you are basically saying that two things which are not equal (seeing, strong deterrence) are clearly equal.
With a handle like yours, I am afraid to argue.
But I am curious whether you read this whole thread, as a lot of the discussion last year does away with your “argument”.Your line of thinking is just incredible.
“The Pshat in the gemara it really isn't a chidush at all it's rather poshut” … but the Shach didn’t manage to work that out.
I did read the whole thread but the majority before i learnt the sugya. Had the gemara not said clearly that "seeing" didn't always mean literally i would agree they aren't the same at all. But being that the gemara does make that distinction, i would seem clear to me (it's not a logical imperative, it's my opinion) that they are in fact equal. I obviously would simply be mevatel my personal opinion to that of the poskim, but after R' Moshe learns this way, i believe it is quite alright to say that his is the simple pshat and that the Shach is a rather mechudash pshat in the gemara.
Once again you have missed the point iv'e been making; according to R' Moshe's derech halimud and psak, cholov stam is no big chidush.

On a side point, I'm not sure if you are aware of it but many of your posts (especially those that are written in regard to halacha and hashkafa) are condescending,insulting, and overall arrogant. You certainly are much more learned than the majority of DDFers and i always enjoy your maareh makomos, but there is no call for the attitude. I'm sure your points would be better accepted if worded with the gentle ne'imus that is the way of Torah.   

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #205 on: August 01, 2013, 10:41:47 PM »
Quote from: steeeveknowsbest link=topic=13
On a side point, I'm not sure if you are aware of it but many of your posts (especially those that are written in regard to halacha and hashkafa) are condescending,insulting, and overall arrogant. You certainly are much more learned than the majority of DDFers and i always enjoy your maareh makomos, but there is no call for the attitude. I'm sure your points would be better accepted if worded with the gentle ne'imus that is the way of Torah.
-1
kach hi darkah shel Torah. Oirayso hu derotach beih

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #206 on: August 01, 2013, 11:10:49 PM »
I did read the whole thread but the majority before i learnt the sugya. Had the gemara not said clearly that "seeing" didn't always mean literally i would agree they aren't the same at all. But being that the gemara does make that distinction, i would seem clear to me (it's not a logical imperative, it's my opinion) that they are in fact equal. I obviously would simply be mevatel my personal opinion to that of the poskim, but after R' Moshe learns this way, i believe it is quite alright to say that his is the simple pshat and that the Shach is a rather mechudash pshat in the gemara.].
Once again you have missed the point iv'e been making; according to R' Moshe's derech halimud and psak, cholov stam is no big chidush.
I am not so sure that Reb Moshe himself felt it was so Poshut.
See YD 1:47 where he explains his שיטה that "ידיעה ברורה הוא כראיה ממש", and his proofs.
Of course if he says this, this is what he holds.
But I am not sure that his Teshuvah conveys that it is so "Poshut".
On a side point, I'm not sure if you are aware of it but many of your posts (especially those that are written in regard to halacha and hashkafa) are condescending,insulting, and overall arrogant. You certainly are much more learned than the majority of DDFers and i always enjoy your maareh makomos, but there is no call for the attitude. I'm sure your points would be better accepted if worded with the gentle ne'imus that is the way of Torah.   
As I have said numerous times throughout this thread, my purpose is not to dissuade anyone from following Reb Moshe.
It is not necessary (and would also amount to nothing) for me to say that יש על מי לסמוך.
What does bother me, and many other people on the forums, is those who present Reb Moshe as עיקר הדין, and everyone else as חומרות והידורים that כלל ישראל shouldn't need to cater to. It is beyond certain that this was not Reb Moshe's intent.
That is how this thread started - the disregard that Kosher caterers have with regards to airline meals, and the passenger just has to accept it.

When I post, it is pretty clear that I do not mean anything personal against anyone, because I do not know a single person here by name - besides Reb Dan. So, if I get carried away in the heat of the moment, I don't see it as a problem. [Especially as there are many other heated exchanges on this forum - sometimes about complete Narishkeit.] But if others here feel the same as you do and PM me, I can try to tone it down.

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #207 on: August 01, 2013, 11:36:26 PM »
-1
kach hi darkah shel Torah. Oirayso hu derotach beih
on the other hand Darcheha darchai noam v'kol nisivoseha shalom and look at what it says in Pirkei Avos about Torah Le'Kanter,

Clearly there is a balance which fits both sides of the coin. I'm not pushing a liberal, mellow let's all be friends Weltanschauung, my feeling is that when someone makes a point calmly and in your counter argument you personal attack him, his motives or his intelligence, this is not the milchama of Torah.

Besides this is a forum not a bais medrash, i don't think that the gemara style machlokes has a place here even if it is appropriate in the BM.

Offline steeeveknowsbest

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #208 on: August 02, 2013, 12:02:53 AM »
I am not so sure that Reb Moshe himself felt it was so Poshut.
See YD 1:47 where he explains his שיטה that "ידיעה ברורה הוא כראיה ממש", and his proofs.
Of course if he says this, this is what he holds.
But I am not sure that his Teshuvah conveys that it is so "Poshut"
R' Moshe goes as far as to say that if someone kept cholov yisroel thinking it was meIkar deDeina he doesn't even need to be matir neder because it is a mistake.
this seems to me to indicate that R' Moshe didn't really see another tzad, perhaps i'm mistaken.

When I post, it is pretty clear that I do not mean anything personal against anyone, because I do not know a single person here by name - besides Reb Dan. So, if I get carried away in the heat of the moment, I don't see it as a problem. [Especially as there are many other heated exchanges on this forum - sometimes about complete Narishkeit.] But if others here feel the same as you do and PM me, I can try to tone it down.
Not knowing someone or the fact that others do so as well does in no way give one carte blanche to treat people as they please. I guess you'll see if others feel the way i do, i don't consider myself to be overly sensitive. Thanks for considering my view though.

just FYI i personally am and have always been machmir not to eat cholov stam.

Offline dirah

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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
« Reply #209 on: August 02, 2013, 12:18:08 AM »
R' Moshe goes as far as to say that if someone kept cholov yisroel thinking it was meIkar deDeina he doesn't even need to be matir neder because it is a mistake.
this seems to me to indicate that R' Moshe didn't really see another tzad, perhaps i'm mistaken.
This is not so.
Reb Moshe is addressing a simple - independent - issue.
Granted that one wishes to be סומך on those who are מיקל, but since he was מחמיר up until now, he might think he needs to continue being מחמיר, due to a totally separate concern - that since he did it three times, it has the status of a נדר.
As we say in התרת נדרים, any good practice done three times has the status of a נדר to some degree:
או אֵיזו הַנְהָגָה טובָה שֶׁנָּהַגְתִּי שָׁלשׁ פְּעָמִים וְלא הִתְנֵיתִי שֶׁיְּהֵא בְּלִי נֶדֶר

So Reb Moshe is clarifying - as most other Poskim hold - that when one did a certain practice three times due to a misconception, (in our case he thought that there are no Poskim who hold you can be מיקל with regards to חלב), this does not have the תוקף of a נדר.

Another famous example of this: Some Poskim say that if someone was careful to give מעשר כספים because he thought it was a דרבנן, and then he discovers that others hold that it is only a מנהג and he wants to be מיקל, he doesn't have to be concerned about הלכות נדרים, because his original conduct was based on a misconception.
Obviously, these Poskim do not mean to say that there is no Tzad to say מעשר כספים is מדרבנן.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 12:22:39 AM by dirah »