Author Topic: Horrific Mental Health Related Tragedy In Lakewood  (Read 34456 times)

Offline theyankel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2013
  • Posts: 1252
  • Total likes: 117
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn, NY
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #120 on: June 28, 2024, 01:24:57 PM »
There's tons of seperate issues to unpack, that are brought up by this story.

I've been pretty open on the forum about my infant son"s z"l death five years ago. Since then I've been in contact with dozens of families that had similar stories.
I went through a relatively gentle police interogation, but other families weren't so lucky.
People love to attack the police and say what are they looking for, we don't do stuff like that...
I've always maintained that just wearing a hat and jacket or snood/shaitle does not provide immunity to anger, mental illness, or being overwhelmed to the point of loosing control. This is not the first time tis has happened in our comunities, and unfortunatley likely not the last. B"H usually child services or the extended family become involved, before the police and CK...

One of my children born afterwards was a screamer, and my wife and I got extremely sleep deprived. It was misrable. One night I found myself, seconds from just shaking the baby till she learned how to shut up... B"H I caught myself, and went to get help the next day, - but it can happen to anyone, even a nice calm guy like me.

I've heard from profesionals in the field that the rates of mothers in our community on anti depression meds is much higher than the general population, which has to to with the unreal expectations and demands put on them.

With regard to some people not being capable of being parents -
A. לא תעמוד על דם רעך should apply to the prospective children.
B. Some people are responsible about their childrens capabilities. I know my wife has a married "friend", who can't understand why although she has taken a "fertility" med every day since she got married, as her doctor prescribed her. she has not been able to get pregnant in over a decade. My wife understands exactly why this is being done to this woman, though she feels terrible about her agmas nefesh.
this comment here shows strength and courage, is enlightening, appreciated and very commendable. i am bookmarking it for when i need a jolt

Offline WayBackMachine

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Sep 2022
  • Posts: 768
  • Total likes: 578
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #121 on: June 28, 2024, 05:18:20 PM »
what does this sound like to you?

Online Just A Jew

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2023
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 2533
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #122 on: June 28, 2024, 05:31:34 PM »
what does this sound like to you?

What does it have to do with this story?
Freedom of the press is alive at the US Mint.
- Gallagher

Online Definitions2

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2023
  • Posts: 532
  • Total likes: 391
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #123 on: June 28, 2024, 06:02:18 PM »
what does this sound like to you?
At first a battering ram against a door. Then it sounded like gunshots

Offline WayBackMachine

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Sep 2022
  • Posts: 768
  • Total likes: 578
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #124 on: June 28, 2024, 06:36:25 PM »
What does it have to do with this story?
oops I didn't read the full title, I saw Lakewood in JS and posted..

At first a battering ram against a door. Then it sounded like gunshots
I am wondering if these are gunshots its from my camara outside, no one at the door.

Offline imayid2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2022
  • Posts: 3455
  • Total likes: 3234
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile

Offline mevinyavin

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Sep 2022
  • Posts: 3553
  • Total likes: 4541
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Laptop help/deal request template
  • Location: Yerushalayim
  • Programs: Windows 10 and 11 Home, Word/Excel/Publisher 2021, Wordweb, McGill English Dictionary of Rhyme, VLC, Torat Emet, 7-Zip, Lightshot, Calibre, FDM, FreeFileSync, Teracopy, Handbrake, Lightshot
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2024, 11:06:16 AM »
https://lakewoodalerts.com/mailbag-i-suffer-from-mental-illness-your-gossip-is-devastating/
Without reading the link, the title itself gets a +1.

IMHO - focus on the asei tov. If you know someone is going through a tekufa of stress (birth of a child, moving, lost a job), aggressively offer to share the burden. Be smart about offering in a way that will be taken up ("My 3YO would love to have a friend today - can I borrow your toddler for a few hours?"). Offer blank checks often ("If you need anything, don't hesitate to call"). Blatantly lie? If warranted and it won't come out. ("My cleaning lady has a few hours but I don't need her - can I send her to you instead?" "I always have leftover chicken and rice- would you want some?")
How do you know if it is a tekufa of stress? Think back to your own life - it shouldn't be too hard.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline Moshe123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 6256
  • Total likes: 970
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Spring Valley
  • Programs: Lost

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20327
  • Total likes: 17510
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #128 on: June 30, 2024, 11:48:14 AM »
https://lakewoodalerts.com/mailbag-i-suffer-from-mental-illness-your-gossip-is-devastating/
I feel terrible for the girl but I am not sure what she is advocating to be done differently. It seems like most of her hurt is from well meaning acquaintances.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 25K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 32248
  • Total likes: 9161
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #129 on: June 30, 2024, 11:52:04 AM »
I feel terrible for the girl but I am not sure what she is advocating to be done differently. It seems like most of her hurt is from well meaning acquaintances.

It sounds to me like she’s seeing people commenting casually on the other story, and her wondering what they would think about her if they knew.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20327
  • Total likes: 17510
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #130 on: June 30, 2024, 11:59:20 AM »
It sounds to me like she’s seeing people commenting casually on the other story, and her wondering what they would think about her if they knew.
It is definitely a good question and one that should be discussed with her care team.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 25K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 32248
  • Total likes: 9161
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #131 on: June 30, 2024, 02:00:45 PM »
It is definitely a good question and one that should be discussed with her care team.

I feel like it echoes my point upthread about how damaging the hock is. She can deal with how she handles it, but people can just learn to be more sensitive and keep their opinions/commentary/nosiness to themselves.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Online Euclid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5549
  • Total likes: 7402
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #132 on: June 30, 2024, 02:31:01 PM »
I feel like it echoes my point upthread about how damaging the hock is. She can deal with how she handles it, but people can just learn to be more sensitive and keep their opinions/commentary/nosiness to themselves.
Like this one? ;)

Online AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 25K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 32248
  • Total likes: 9161
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #133 on: June 30, 2024, 03:34:02 PM »
Like this one? ;)

It’s definitely a slippery slope to discuss specific people/situations.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Online Alexsei

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 7004
  • Total likes: 2770
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
    • Travel & Kivrei Zadikim
  • Location: Chinada/Canadstan/Crussia/North Kanada
  • Programs: COVID-25
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #134 on: June 30, 2024, 03:51:34 PM »
I think the focus on "Lakewood" isn't helping the "awareness" why does it matter that this happened in Lakewood?
vemeredenuchyontif

Online Just A Jew

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2023
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 2533
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #135 on: June 30, 2024, 03:51:37 PM »
There's a very delicate balance which needs to be had when talking about these subjects. On one hand, incidents like this need to be discussed, because hiding them under the rug hasn't worked for us. On the other, people need to remember that public discussion, especially on the internet, can and will be seen by the families and friends of those involved, as well as others who may be dealing with similar issues (directly or indirectly). Before hitting "post," hit "preview." Read your post as if you (c"v) are personally affected by the topic. Would you still hit "post?"
Freedom of the press is alive at the US Mint.
- Gallagher

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20327
  • Total likes: 17510
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #136 on: June 30, 2024, 04:37:30 PM »


because hiding them under the rug hasn't worked for us.

I didn't know of any evidence that things have been hidden under a rug or that they haven't worked for us.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Just A Jew

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2023
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 2533
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #137 on: June 30, 2024, 04:47:09 PM »

I didn't know of any evidence that things have been hidden under a rug or that they haven't worked for us.

I don't even know what to say to this. I'd tell you to get out more, but you're out plenty. I also respect you too much to call you a liar, so I'm just going to have to assume you meant to say something that I'm not understanding.
Freedom of the press is alive at the US Mint.
- Gallagher

Online Alexsei

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 7004
  • Total likes: 2770
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
    • Travel & Kivrei Zadikim
  • Location: Chinada/Canadstan/Crussia/North Kanada
  • Programs: COVID-25
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #138 on: June 30, 2024, 05:00:13 PM »
I don't even know what to say to this. I'd tell you to get out more, but you're out plenty. I also respect you too much to call you a liar, so I'm just going to have to assume you meant to say something that I'm not understanding.
We have to determine what sweeping under the rug means, does it mean that when a sensitive sad story happens it's not discussed publicly? Does it mean that when a sensitive sad story happens professional help isn't sought? Taking the current story as an example what would typical sweeping under the rug mean after the fact, and what would it mean before the fact ?

From what I've read here, she was under care for her situation, perhaps she felt societal pressure to bear children, perhaps she herself direly wanted children, who was supposed to stop her? Is there any law or criteria who's allowed to have children? Are doctors legally required to prevent adults in such cases from having children? We clearly value having children a lot more than any other community, and as a result having children is a very core integral part of our society, but do we have a systemic problem? Is our problem relatively greater than in other communities where child bearing isn't top of the list?

I see so many ads, and companies in the tri state area for mental care, so many organizations, so many rebbanim with a great understanding of the situation, I think we've never been so open on the matter. In my opinion she clearly wasn't a Baal bechira at that point. Was she a Baal bechira before having children? Maybe yes maybe no.

Certainly, there are many things we as individuals can learn from, there are many things rebbanim can learn from, however I don't see the indication that this horrific sad story happened as a result of a systemic sweeping under the rug scheme.  I believe this is the point @aygart was trying to make.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 06:15:59 PM by Alexsei »
vemeredenuchyontif

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 20327
  • Total likes: 17510
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Horrific Tragedy In Lakewood
« Reply #139 on: June 30, 2024, 05:01:08 PM »
I don't even know what to say to this. I'd tell you to get out more, but you're out plenty. I also respect you too much to call you a liar, so I'm just going to have to assume you meant to say something that I'm not understanding.
I seriously feel that education to recognize mental health issues is much better in our community than in others and the support infrastructure is much more advanced. Any story you see is much less prevalent than outside the community because things get caught earlier and treated better and more effectively.
Feelings don't care about your facts