Author Topic: Should Secular and Non-Chareidi Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?  (Read 1397 times)

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Was just thinking about this..
Should israeli citizens be forced to go into the army?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 10:33:55 AM by Dan »

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Should Secular and Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2024, 08:47:35 AM »
Was just thinking about this..
Should israeli citizens be forced to go into the army?
Are you asking if the draft is a good idea in general?
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline AsherO

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Re: Should Secular and Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2024, 08:52:58 AM »
Are you asking if the draft is a good idea in general?

Nah, just do away with it and shut down the IDF

/s

Seriously, I donít understand the question.
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Online yfr bachur

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Re: Should Secular and Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2024, 09:27:53 AM »
Seriously, I donít understand the question.
I'm guessing @LongTimeLurker s question is
Quote
Should Secular and Non Chareidi Religious Israelis be forced to go into the army?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 09:31:07 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Should Secular and Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2024, 09:41:44 AM »
Was just thinking about this..
Should israeli citizens be forced to go into the army?
Arabs, definitely. Why are they not conscripted?

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Should Secular and Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2024, 09:52:56 AM »
I'm guessing @LongTimeLurker s question is
correct
can we get a mod edit @AsherO

Online yfr bachur

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Re: Should Secular and Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2024, 10:31:42 AM »
It's a good question.
From which point of view would you like me to answer?

I mean, this is questioning the secular golden calf...


Offline AsherO

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Arabs, definitely. Why are they not conscripted?

Supposedly security risks, though there might be better actual answers.
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Offline AsherO

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Was just thinking about this..
Should israeli citizens be forced to go into the army?

What are the alternatives? First off, mandatory military service is there to provide for security needs during peacetime, and to ensure everyone has military experience for when additional reserves need to be called up.
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Online yfr bachur

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What are the alternatives? First off, mandatory military service is there to provide for security needs during peacetime, and to ensure everyone has military experience for when additional reserves need to be called up.

Let's ask the questions differently:
If the purpose of the universal draft is to mold the "New Jew" (as early israeli leaders held) Should Secular and Non-Chareidi Religous Israelis be forced to go into the army?
If the purpose of the universal draft is to provide for security needs during peacetime, and to ensure that there are enough reservists with the right military experience for when additional reserves need to be called up, are there better and/or more efficient ways to achieve that goal than a universal draft?
If the army could not rely on an unending flow of new conscripts to fill its ranks of combat support and logistics operations (i.e. anything not the combat arm, or the intelligence arm) would it find a better more efficient way to fill those roles (maintenance, logistics, media relations...) ?
Are there parts of the army that could be dismantled and/or moved to the civilian responsibility if the draft would be abolished (looking at you Galei Tzahal and parts of Pikud HaOref)?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 11:48:46 AM by yfr bachur »

Online yfr bachur

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Supposedly security risks, though there might be better actual answers.

Yeh, Racism
/s

The answer that the pundits have been giving of late for the difference between the chareidim who MUST BE DRAFTED, and the arabs - is The chareidim are getting excluded as a class, the arabs all get individual exemptions...

Offline gozalim

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Bait question

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Bait question
Not at all. If you think one group of citizens shouldn't be forced to go into the army, then no other group should either. Suddenly I realized we're all asking the wrong questions.

Your kids don't get a tzav rishon, why should my kids get a tzav rishon? All equal under the law etc



P..s @Dan  there's gotta be a cheaper way then using CloudFront, seems like a pricey overkill for image hosting - see if you can use cloudflare for free.

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Not at all. If you think one group of citizens shouldn't be forced to go into the army, then no other group should either. Suddenly I realized we're all asking the wrong questions.

Your kids don't get a tzav rishon, why should my kids get a tzav rishon? All equal under the law etc



I agree.
There really has not ever been any serious discussion on this topic, at least that I remember.
The civilian review of the defence budget, which should at least start to dig at getting answers on needed vs superfluous staffing, waste in various army unit ect... has been delayed for years under the guise of "security concerns".
It's much easier (and politicaly expedient!) to bait on the Chareidim than ask hard questions about whether the current mandatory universal draft setup is still appropriate.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 01:11:48 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline Moshe123

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We didn't want this country. You did. Deal with it.

Offline imayid2

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Not at all. If you think one group of citizens shouldn't be forced to go into the army, then no other group should either. Suddenly I realized we're all asking the wrong questions.

Your kids don't get a tzav rishon, why should my kids get a tzav rishon? All equal under the law etc
I donít understand your question. Non chareidim are (were) also eligible for exemptions if they are learning full time.

Offline yelped

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We didn't want this country. You did. Deal with it.
"You can't drill a hole under the boat." Oops, they did. Now, what? You're not going to plug the hole, because "they" (who doesn't even exist anymore) drilled it?

Let's have a real discussion, not juvenile attitudes that are not helpful to bringing a resolution.

Offline imayid2

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"You can't drill a hole under the boat." Oops, they did. Now, what? You're not going to plug the hole, because "they" (who doesn't even exist anymore) drilled it?

Let's have a real discussion, not juvenile attitudes that are not helpful to bringing a resolution.
Your analogy fails because there are others engaged in the plugging. Unless you are attempting to argue that there is an existential threat without chareidi involvement. Youíd need to back that up.

Offline yelped

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Your analogy fails because there are others engaged in the plugging. Unless you are attempting to argue that there is an existential threat without chareidi involvement. Youíd need to back that up.
No, it's stupid because you are getting lost with different, unrelated items.

Anyways, it's being plugged by others who are also not responsible for getting themselves in this predicament. Ultimately, it's all Hashem anyways, so pretty weak sauce to blame Zionists for something that would have happened regardless.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 04:58:32 PM by yelped »

Offline gozalim

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Not at all. If you think one group of citizens shouldn't be forced to go into the army, then no other group should either. Suddenly I realized we're all asking the wrong questions.

Your kids don't get a tzav rishon, why should my kids get a tzav rishon? All equal under the law etc



P..s @Dan  there's gotta be a cheaper way then using CloudFront, seems like a pricey overkill for image hosting - see if you can use cloudflare for free.
exactly the bait I was referring to