Author Topic: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise  (Read 14121 times)

Offline mlardi

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #120 on: December 08, 2024, 02:25:25 AM »
All these people who all of a sudden have with concerns about hechsherim are they also concerned when eating OU-D? ישראל בחזקת כשרות

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #121 on: December 08, 2024, 02:42:52 AM »
All these people who all of a sudden have with concerns about hechsherim are they also concerned when eating OU-D? ישראל בחזקת כשרות

What makes you think they drink/eat OU-D??


Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2024, 05:20:48 AM »
All these people who all of a sudden have with concerns about hechsherim are they also concerned when eating OU-D? ישראל בחזקת כשרות
What's the "all of a sudden"?
The need for hechsherim, What obligations (if any) the takana of the vaad arbaa aratzos have today, the problems with relying on the eid echad neeman beisurin etc in commercial settings, the need to understand what is the Yados of the "eidus" given when someone says "its kosher, eid echad neeman...", what the modern "minhag" of only eating stuff with a hechsher means... etc etc etc have all been discussed at great and extensive length on these forums.

There are posters who have by and large been on the meikel side in previous discussions of basic kashrus that are highly sceptical of what is going on on these Shabbos cruises. These are complicated and rare halachos, and the average "mashgiach kashrus" or "frum tour operator" likely have ZERO familiarity with them.
Honestly, I'd like to thank Reb @Dan for having cared enough to do  extensive research before his trip to Antarctica and then teaching us all about it (then and now).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2024, 05:26:29 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline Dan

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2024, 11:06:25 AM »
All these people who all of a sudden have with concerns about hechsherim are they also concerned when eating OU-D? ישראל בחזקת כשרות
Sorry, but there is no חזקת כשרות when it comes to these super complicated halachos that 99.99% of Jews have never thought of.

Shabbos issues on a boat are massive, and not one person has posted a satisfactory answer to the questions I asked above.

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2024, 11:36:10 AM »
All these people who all of a sudden have with concerns about hechsherim are they also concerned when eating OU-D?
Huh?

Offline mlardi

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #125 on: December 08, 2024, 12:57:39 PM »
If you question Yechiel Steinmetz hechser then you can't eat in a lot of Monsey restaurants, but a chabad rabbi somewhere in Mexico you would have no issue eating at the hotel under his supervision? Why is the hechser on the boat different?
If you question this one ( unless you've heard already on this hechser) you can't rely on any other hechser at the other side world or program

Offline aygart

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2024, 01:01:09 PM »
If you question Yechiel Steinmetz hechser then you can't eat in a lot of Monsey restaurants, but a chabad rabbi somewhere in Mexico you would have no issue eating at the hotel under his supervision? Why is the hechser on the boat different?
If you question this one ( unless you've heard already on this hechser) you can't rely on any other hechser at the other side world or program

Without speaking anything about this hechsher or situation about which I know little, there is definitely good reason to differentiate between the local establishments under a hechsher and something given a half a world away that has many added complexities.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mlardi

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #127 on: December 08, 2024, 01:07:28 PM »
Without speaking anything about this hechsher or situation about which I know little, there is definitely good reason to differentiate between the local establishments under a hechsher and something given a half a world away that has many added complexities.
And this is what he does: he gives hechsherim. and if you trust the local hechser/rabbi in Nepal why won't you trust an established hechser out of Monsey NY?

Offline aygart

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #128 on: December 08, 2024, 01:16:20 PM »
And this is what he does: he gives hechsherim. and if you trust the local hechser/rabbi in Nepal why won't you trust an established hechser out of Monsey NY?

I don't necessarily trust a Rabbi out of Nepal where I have never been anywhere even close, but the 2 are not at all comparable.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #129 on: December 08, 2024, 01:21:34 PM »
If you question Yechiel Steinmetz hechser then you can't eat in a lot of Monsey restaurants, but a chabad rabbi somewhere in Mexico you would have no issue eating at the hotel under his supervision? Why is the hechser on the boat different?
If you question this one ( unless you've heard already on this hechser) you can't rely on any other hechser at the other side world or program
I don't know monsey, and I've never eaten anything supervised (excusively) by a random chabad rabbi.
The mehalach I got from my Rav was that a non-local hechsher (when good local options exist) is a red flag, and needs explaination.
Aygart has it right
there is definitely good reason to differentiate between the local establishments under a hechsher and something given a half a world away that has many added complexities.

The questions on this thread are mainly real hard questions that Dan has asked, with no answer coming from anybody.
I mixed in a few curiousities of mine (childhood nickname was George for a reason ;D), and wrote clearly that that was what it was and not criticism.
@BOOKY no one here is attacking, we are truly curious what is done about these shaylos. If you care enough to come back and report on what you remember noticing on your cruise about the issues dan has raised, we would all be happy.

And if you want me to work through my curious questions and explain them... Here goes... It would seem inefficient for a US based rav to come in and kasher a EU facility to supply the cruise when these facilities exist under local hechsherim, so likely this was outsourced to a EU hashgacha. Once we assume that, the question becomes why the expense of transporting US based mashgichim to the EU to do the actual cruise, when there are plenty of locals who can do it. Unless A. the locals wont do it, so why?, or B. there's a specific reason to take this particular Rav from the US, (like there are eruvin issues and he happens to also be an expert in that or the like) or C. the mashgichim are local, but the Rav Hamachshir is from the US... which leads to further curiosities... Do the rabbanim who put their names as "Rav Hamachshir" on complicated situations like hotels and cruises over shabbos, actually come down to the venue over shabbos, or are they relying on "mashgichim". If they are not on site what happens when there's a shayla on shabbos? who is the rav who paskens? are the mashgichim trained in complicated shabbos, amira leakum sugyos ect or just kashrus...
Since Dan has brought up major shabbos issues, who is in charge of making sure the agreed upon solutions are done (if they even thought of the shayla) especially if the 'rav hamachshil' is not on site?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2024, 01:42:37 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline aygart

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #130 on: December 08, 2024, 02:50:49 PM »
I don't know monsey, and I've never eaten anything supervised (excusively) by a random chabad rabbi.
The mehalach I got from my Rav was that a non-local hechsher (when good local options exist) is a red flag, and needs explaination.
Aygart has it right
The questions on this thread are mainly real hard questions that Dan has asked, with no answer coming from anybody.
I mixed in a few curiousities of mine (childhood nickname was George for a reason ;D), and wrote clearly that that was what it was and not criticism.
@BOOKY no one here is attacking, we are truly curious what is done about these shaylos. If you care enough to come back and report on what you remember noticing on your cruise about the issues dan has raised, we would all be happy.

And if you want me to work through my curious questions and explain them... Here goes... It would seem inefficient for a US based rav to come in and kasher a EU facility to supply the cruise when these facilities exist under local hechsherim, so likely this was outsourced to a EU hashgacha. Once we assume that, the question becomes why the expense of transporting US based mashgichim to the EU to do the actual cruise, when there are plenty of locals who can do it. Unless A. the locals wont do it, so why?, or B. there's a specific reason to take this particular Rav from the US, (like there are eruvin issues and he happens to also be an expert in that or the like) or C. the mashgichim are local, but the Rav Hamachshir is from the US... which leads to further curiosities... Do the rabbanim who put their names as "Rav Hamachshir" on complicated situations like hotels and cruises over shabbos, actually come down to the venue over shabbos, or are they relying on "mashgichim". If they are not on site what happens when there's a shayla on shabbos? who is the rav who paskens? are the mashgichim trained in complicated shabbos, amira leakum sugyos ect or just kashrus...
Since Dan has brought up major shabbos issues, who is in charge of making sure the agreed upon solutions are done (if they even thought of the shayla) especially if the 'rav hamachshil' is not on site?

The flip side is that sometimes places will want a hechsher that their target clientele are familiar with who will work hand in hand with locals that he trusts.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Alexsei

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #131 on: December 08, 2024, 02:54:02 PM »
The flip side is that sometimes places will want a hechsher that their target clientele are familiar with who will work hand in hand with locals that he trusts.
Exactly. The tour operator wants the marketing to work for their target clientele. 90% of which just want to see a recognizable name.
vemeredenuchyontif

Offline aygart

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #132 on: December 08, 2024, 03:18:04 PM »
Exactly. The tour operator wants the marketing to work for their target clientele. 90% of which just want to see a recognizable name.
What does this leave us with? That there are good legitimate reasons to say that the hechasher can still be as good as a local one and possibly better, but also good reasons to ask questions since it is very possible otherwise.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Alexsei

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #133 on: December 08, 2024, 03:19:37 PM »
What does this leave us with? That there are good legitimate reasons to say that the hechasher can still be as good as a local one and possibly better, but also good reasons to ask questions since it is very possible otherwise.
Nobody cares
vemeredenuchyontif

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2024, 03:34:57 PM »
Nobody cares

I just feel I have to put it out here as I see this sentiment a lot here, SF also points a lot to this sad phenomenon. The notion that "nobody cares" about kashrus in relation to the cruises and programs etc. doesn't speak about the klal as a whole, rather, it speaks about the clientele of these programs that what "they" are mainly concerned about isn't necessarily the kashrus as a top priority, they tend to rely on the arranger's word for kashrus more than they would rely on his word about how successful the whole arrangement would be. There is a concept that "Hashem never goes bankrupt", so with kashrus too there are thousands of yidden who take kashrus as the highest priority, it just seems that they tend to participate in these programs in lower numbers. :)

Offline Dan

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #135 on: December 08, 2024, 03:39:57 PM »
I just feel I have to put it out here as I see this sentiment a lot here, SF also points a lot to this sad phenomenon. The notion that "nobody cares" about kashrus in relation to the cruises and programs etc. doesn't speak about the klal as a whole, rather, it speaks about the clientele of these programs that what "they" are mainly concerned about isn't necessarily the kashrus as a top priority, they tend to rely on the arranger's word for kashrus more than they would rely on his word about how successful the whole arrangement would be. There is a concept that "Hashem never goes bankrupt", so with kashrus too there are thousands of yidden who take kashrus as the highest priority, it just seems that they tend to participate in these programs in lower numbers. :)
FWIW, we had plenty of clientele that did care. @Traveler718 asked us tough questions and we were the better for it!

Nobody should go on any cruise blindly IMHO. There is an entire world of kashrus and Shabbos logistics that makes it nothing like certifying a restaurant.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yelped

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2024, 10:50:41 PM »
FWIW, we had plenty of clientele that did care. @Traveler718 asked us tough questions and we were the better for it!

Nobody should go on any cruise blindly IMHO. There is an entire world of kashrus and Shabbos logistics that makes it nothing like certifying a restaurant.
He is also selective with the jokes he posts here lol.

Offline Dan

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2025, 01:25:55 PM »
2 companies are advertising private charters to Antarctica over Shabbos.

1 disclosed their R"H and I reached out to him with a number of logistics questions. Another didn't and I reached out asking for the contact of their R"H.

I haven't done the research to know if Shabbos on a cruise is possible without melacha when docked, but as there are no docks in Antarctica, it sure seems impossible to do without being mechalel Shabbos. But I'm open to being educated otherwise.

Has anyone else asked these kosher cruise charter companies the questions posed above?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Traveler718

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #138 on: March 08, 2025, 08:47:31 PM »
@Dan Any updates?

Offline Dan

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Re: Private Charter - Kosher Cruise
« Reply #139 on: March 08, 2025, 09:30:41 PM »
@Dan Any updates?
From what I can see, these are being done without any poskim signing off on it, but they don't really want to send me details.

I asked @dirah and Rav Heinemann about a private charter previously and both said it would need to be 51% non-Jewish passengers to be viable, which is why we did a minority situation.

A charter would be a dream though if halachically feasible. I'd love to get to South Georgia and cross the circle!

You can contact them as a prospective client and ask the relevant questions for yourself to have a better idea if there are heterim.

Off the top of my head:
-If it's a Jewish charter, the non-Jews are only operating there because of the Jews, so how is any melacha OK if the boat wouldn't be there if not for the charter?
-There are no ports in Antarctica, even if it's anchored, they will likely have to move due to weather. Is melacha on behalf of a Jewish charter ok?
-Does desalinating water, boiling water for ship operations, and generating power require manual intervention, and would more melcaha be done for the Jewish passengers vs if it were just the crew onboard?
-Will there be PA announcements made on Shabbos?
-Other Shabbos issues?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.