Private Charter - Kosher Cruise

[Chilla]

lol, love you man!!
Just very much hoping that since you're catering to a chasidishe crowd, you find a way to get this done על הצד היותר טוב, and that you are able to communicate transparently how these issues are being addressed.
Also, hoping myself to learn something from this- lots of halachos pointed out above.

[Dan]

lol, love you man!!
Just very much hoping that since you're catering to a chasidishe crowd, you find a way to get this done על הצד היותר טוב, and that you are able to communicate transparently how these issues are being addressed.
Also, hoping myself to learn something from this- lots of halachos pointed out above.

Clearly isn't involved with them anymore...but it would be very nice if a company rep would come on here to clarify the issues raised.

I'll have my attorney get back to you on this

[Alexsei]

Clearly isn't involved with them anymore...

+1

[Chilla]

Clearly isn't involved with them anymore...but it would be very nice if a company rep would come on here to clarify the issues raised.

Sorry, @chff , thought it was you running the show.
Explains a lot.
I thought your 'lawyer' comment was just a humorous way of saying you will let us know what your rov said.

[Travel Lover]

The owner of PIR told me I was the first person to raise this issue.

What did he answer to all the concerns people here are having about it ?

[Dan]

What did he answer to all the concerns people here are having about it ?

The easy cop-out answer is that it's hooked up to external power and water and no melacha is done for the pax. A rov unfamiliar with the logistics would probably sign off based on this answer.

The harder answer is that there is rarely enough power or water available as an external hookup and it's typically supplemented from onboard processes, which would certainly be in violation of Shabbos when those are done on behalf of a ship that's majority Jewish pax. There are likely other onboard melachos being done by the crew in violation of Shabbos as it's only being done for Jews.

Extensive research of the port and boat's processes would be required to implement this in a way that's not being mechalel Shabbos.

As for Antarctica, there's close to a 0% chance this is possible to be done properly, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Something Fishy]

What did he answer to all the concerns people here are having about it ?

The ship will be hooked up to land power, water, sewer, and gas.

No one has raised a new point since I posted this, or shown how this is any different than a hotel.

The one point raised by Dan about cruise ships and dock power has no bearing here since a. a small river boat and a massive cruise ship have no shaichus as far as the amount of power required, and b. it's already been confirmed that the boat WILL be hooked up to shore facilities.

[Dan]

No one has raised a new point since I posted this, or shown how this is any different than a hotel.

The one point raised by Dan about cruise ships and dock power has no bearing here since a. a small river boat and a massive cruise ship have no shaichus as far as the amount of power required, and b. it's already been confirmed that the boat WILL be hooked up to shore facilities.

Will be hooked up, ok, but was it confirmed that there is enough power so that no supplemental power is needed?
Same question for water. It seems many boats don't even have a way to be hooked up to an external water supply.
Does the crew actually avoid doing any melacha to keep the boat operational on Shabbos?

And better yet, a port in Antarctica that can do all this?

[Something Fishy]

The easy cop-out answer is that it's hooked up to external power and water and no melacha is done for the pax. A rov unfamiliar with the logistics would probably sign off based on this answer.

The harder answer is that there is rarely enough power or water available as an external hookup and it's typically supplemented from onboard processes, which would certainly be in violation of Shabbos when those are done on behalf of a ship that's majority Jewish pax. There are likely other onboard melachos being done by the crew in violation of Shabbos as it's only being done for Jews.

Extensive research of the port and boat's processes would be required to implement this in a way that's not being mechalel Shabbos.

As for Antarctica, there's close to a 0% chance this is possible to be done properly, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

It's not a cop out anwswer. It's either factually correct or factually incorrect. All the fact I know are from PIR who has their info from the ship operator. If you don't believe these facts feel free to reach out to eother or both of them; I have no horse in this fight (for lack of better term lol).

And obviously I'm only talking about the river cruise; re. Antarctica were definitely on the same page 100%.

[Something Fishy]

Does the crew actually avoid doing any melacha to keep the boat operational on Shabbos?

Let's say for arguments sake that they DO melachas. How is that different than a hotel? Or a simcha hall? These shailos have been asked and resolved a million times in the past. PIR has years of experience with the latter two; the same would apply to the cruise.

[Alexsei]

In other Cruise news...
https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1855641373560762502

[Dan]

Let's say for arguments sake that they DO melachas. How is that different than a hotel? Or a simcha hall? These shailos have been asked and resolved a million times in the past. PIR has years of experience with the latter two; the same would apply to the cruise.

Because it is very different.

I've gone through these shaylos, hotels can easily run without melacha. If melacha is required for the boat's power, water, or operations to stay afloat, then there are major Shabbos issues.

One email out of a long chain with Rabbi Heber from when I was looking into charter possibilities:

[Dan]

If you don't believe these facts feel free to reach out to eother or both of them

Don't have the time to do a deep dive. I'm just posting the problems I personally encountered, and that I'm skeptical that this can be properly done. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am curious how much this has been researched or if people are assuming it's just a hotel/hall shayla, which it's not.

The fact that nobody has even asked about these problems is eye-opening. I do wonder if the boat's operator was asked these questions Masiach Lefi Tumo when signing the contract.

People going on the boat should be asking these questions though.

[pointer]

The fact that nobody has even asked about these problems is eye-opening. I do wonder if the boat's operator was asked these questions Masiach Lefi Tumo when signing the contract.

People going on the boat should be asking these questions though.

Why is it eye opening? Why is it different than the food industry? You see a hechser that you trust and you go all in. You don’t start questioning all the potential problems. You don’t even know the potential problems.

If it’s a hechsher that’s not fully up to your standards you might start questioning.

[moko]

Inyanei diyoma.... Current limud daf yomi halacha

[moko]

Why is it eye opening? Why is it different than the food industry? You see a hechser that you trust and you go all in. You don’t start questioning all the potential problems. You don’t even know the potential problems.

If it’s a hechsher that’s not fully up to your standards you might start questioning.

many (most?) tourists don't even know what hashgacha there is. Not simply because they don't advertise it but many don't advertise because the operators themselves don't have it on place until fairly last minute. I know this because of all the requests for a last minute " Rav hamachashir" for various tour operators

[pointer]

many (most?) tourists don't even know what hashgacha there is. Not simply because they don't advertise it but many don't advertise because the operators themselves don't have it on place until fairly last minute. I know this because of all the requests for a last minute " Rav hamachashir" for various tour operators

Now that's a different story.

But once you know and trust the hashgacha, I do not find it eye opening that people fully trust it without question certain details.

[mendi n]

I just don't understand
How are boat works?
Electricity- if the have a generator and connected to the shore they still need someone to Press buttons and do melacha?

Water and waste they have to do a melacha ?
Can't they stay 1 day without touching the stuff ?
Is that impossible?

Explain to us
Because if they can be 24 hours alone and the goy still decide to do stuff for him self it's ok

[Dan]

I just don't understand
How are boat works?
Electricity- if the have a generator and connected to the shore they still need someone to Press buttons and do melacha?

Water and waste they have to do a melacha ?
Can't they stay 1 day without touching the stuff ?
Is that impossible?

Explain to us
Because if they can be 24 hours alone and the goy still decide to do stuff for him self it's ok

Read these and ask again if you still have questions?

More info:
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/1966373/jewish/Shabbat-Desecration-on-Jewish-Ocean-Liners.htm

https://www.star-k.org/articles/wp-content/uploads/holiday-at-sea.pdf

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/484239/jewish/May-I-go-on-a-cruise-on-Shabbat.htm

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4159898/jewish/Ships.htm

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2024/07/14/cruise-ship-shore-power/74380303007/

Less than 3% of ports worldwide currently offer onshore power. A cruise ship could be running five, 10, maybe even sometimes 20 megawatts of power in shore, so it's not a small load,” he said. “So you need to have the infrastructure to get the power to the pier, which is an investment from the port side, and your power grid has to have the ability to take on this extra load.

[Dan]

Now that's a different story.

But once you know and trust the hashgacha, I do not find it eye opening that people fully trust it without question certain details.

How does hashgacha on the food impact Shabbos questions?

Show me the Rav that signed off on this charter. 

All kosher (except Shabbos).