Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 180198 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1125 on: July 25, 2017, 09:07:28 AM »
Inaccurate (to be polite) on so many fronts. Almost every paragraph is factually wrong.
I would guess that many outside Lubavitch view it in the same way. If it takes an insider view to understand why it is not that way that in itself is a problem.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1126 on: July 25, 2017, 09:33:18 AM »
I would guess that many outside Lubavitch view it in the same way. If it takes an insider view to understand why it is not that way that in itself is a problem.

Your statement in other words:
"If you have to know what Lubavitchers believe in order to know what they believe, that's a problem"

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1127 on: July 25, 2017, 09:33:50 AM »
I would guess that many outside Lubavitch view it in the same way. If it takes an insider view to understand why it is not that way that in itself is a problem.
Just read the following quote from the article:

Quote
היהדות מאוד אוהבת את המשיחיות כרעיון ומאוד מסתייגת ממשיח בשר ודם.

That is a factually wrong premise which should be universally recognized.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1128 on: July 25, 2017, 09:38:56 AM »
Your statement in other words:
"If you have to know what Lubavitchers believe in order to know what they believe, that's a problem"
Very wrong. If the perception of their actions is that they are similar to Christianity then that is a problem even if there are significant differences that are not perceived by those on the outside.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1129 on: July 25, 2017, 09:44:47 AM »
Inaccurate (to be polite) on so many fronts. Almost every paragraph is factually wrong.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1130 on: July 25, 2017, 09:46:23 AM »
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1131 on: July 25, 2017, 09:50:07 AM »
Inaccurate (to be polite) on so many fronts. Almost every paragraph is factually wrong.
Idk about every paragraph being factually inaccurate, but there's nothing new that he's saying. He's just taking a classic view that many people in this thread took.

And then he gives a little psychological twist of trying to explain it according to how others deal with grief or belief. Sounds boring, not sure who'd be interested in buying his book.

I would guess that many outside Lubavitch view it in the same way. If it takes an insider view to understand why it is not that way that in itself is a problem.
Because every goy understand Judaism right? Explained animal sacrifices or murdering children of amalek to many people recently? Outsiders not understanding a part of Judaism never seemed to be a problem before, in fact I recall one time some holy Jews were forced to explain Judaism and it was a pretty bad time for us...
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1132 on: July 25, 2017, 09:54:29 AM »
Because every goy understand Judaism right? Explained animal sacrifices or murdering children of amalek to many people recently? Outsiders not understanding a part of Judaism never seemed to be a problem before, in fact I recall one time some holy Jews were forced to explain Judaism and it was a pretty bad time for us...
Do you feel that the way the vast majority of frum yidden view Lubavitch should be compared to the way non-Jews view Jews? My understanding always was that Lubavitch  and the rest of Orthodox Judaism were co-religionists with Lubavitch being relatively small differences within the same belief system. Do you feel otherwise?
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Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1133 on: July 25, 2017, 09:58:25 AM »
The other article about the loonies who eat chaser on Tisha bav was more interesting.

Although I guess I shouldn't swallow this one whole either
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 10:28:37 AM by henche »

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1134 on: July 25, 2017, 10:00:42 AM »
Do you feel that the way the vast majority of frum yidden view Lubavitch should be compared to the way non-Jews view Jews? My understanding always was that Lubavitch  and the rest of Orthodox Judaism were co-religionists with Lubavitch being relatively small differences within the same belief system. Do you feel otherwise?
I think many frum Jews view lubavitch in the same way they view non-Jews. So that may explain my feelings. I believe reading through this thread can show that.

As I said many many time this whole discussion is in fact a very small part of the belief system so yes I agree with that. Small parts being different or not understood isn't a big deal.

ETA: When I say they view lubavitch in the same way they view non-jews I mean, many don't go read through threads like this that quote sources and go through explanations of how it's possible for the Rebbe to have a chezkas mashiach, but rather they listen to what they are told by friends, colleagues, rebbeim etc and take it for granted that what they believe is wrong much like they don't read the new testament to know they are wrong.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 10:07:29 AM by jj1000 »
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1135 on: July 25, 2017, 10:11:49 AM »
I think many frum Jews view lubavitch in the same way they view non-Jews. So that may explain my feelings. I believe reading through this thread can show that.
There are definitely those who view portions of Lubavitch as having gone off the deep end. Considering that I have seen a siddur from what seems to be a VERY fringe group (discussed elsewhere) which actually modified the 13 Ikarim there seems to be some truth on the extreme fringes. Regarding Lubavitch as a wholI do not see that, but I can understand where some outside observers within the frum community may get such a misconception. It is definitely a shallow view, but until you understand where it comes from and how people get that view you will be unable to confront it effectively.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1136 on: July 25, 2017, 10:13:41 AM »
As I said many many time this whole discussion is in fact a very small part of the belief system so yes I agree with that. Small parts being different or not understood isn't a big deal.
Do you understand why people will feel this to be a much more sensitive issue than you are making it to be?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1137 on: July 25, 2017, 10:16:22 AM »
There are definitely those who view portions of Lubavitch as having gone off the deep end. Considering that I have seen a siddur from what seems to be a VERY fringe group (discussed elsewhere) which actually modified the 13 Ikarim there seems to be some truth on the extreme fringes. Regarding Lubavitch as a wholI do not see that, but I can understand where some outside observers within the frum community may get such a misconception. It is definitely a shallow view, but until you understand where it comes from and how people get that view you will be unable to confront it effectively.
No arguments from me, there are absolute loons claiming to be Chabad.

Do you understand why people will feel this to be a much more sensitive issue than you are making it to be?
I do and in this thread, that was one of the main points I tried to show why it isn't to Chabad and it shouldn't be to others.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1138 on: July 25, 2017, 10:23:19 AM »
No arguments from me, there are absolute loons claiming to be Chabad.
I do and in this thread, that was one of the main points I tried to show why it isn't to Chabad and it shouldn't be to others.
As I said many many time this whole discussion is in fact a very small part of the belief system so yes I agree with that.
Given the prominence given to "Yechi" it has such as being embroidered into yarmulkas and the like simply calling it a small part of the belief system is not credible to an outsider. In order to be credible it needs to give an understanding about how "Yechi" comes into the picture. The other option is to disavow it, but that is much more than disavowing the loons who changed the siddur.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1139 on: July 25, 2017, 10:26:07 AM »
Given the prominence given to "Yechi" it has such as being embroidered into yarmulkas and the like simply calling it a small part of the belief system is not credible to an outsider. In order to be credible it needs to give an understanding about how "Yechi" comes into the picture. The other option is to disavow it, but that is much more than disavowing the loons who changed the siddur.
Yup, that's some of what the 1,100+ messages here are about. Man I wish this thread was locked. I wasted too much time on it, and as always no ones opinions are changed. Ah well, such is the Internets.
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