Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 242522 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1180 on: July 25, 2017, 01:17:02 PM »
and they seem to have gone right over your head considering that you keep going back to
So this is just about optics of the vocal minority for people who are ignorant of actual halacha?
Nunu.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1181 on: July 25, 2017, 01:22:13 PM »
Or that you willingly took a picture of seforim with a chumash sitting in middle that wasn't placed on top of the other seforim.
Aruch Hashulchan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1182 on: July 25, 2017, 01:40:08 PM »
I can't believe this thread is starting up again
As long as we are still in Golus, it will keep flaring up again and again every so often.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline MeirS

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1183 on: July 25, 2017, 02:07:13 PM »
You're confusing the moshiach belief which is basically unanimous in chabad, with the elokistik sect.
Then there's the great middle, that "worship" the Rebbe, but not as littteral as the actual elokists....( Ie, "let's do mitzvos to make the Rebbe proud"- standard chabbad language etc)

In other words, a massively complicated topic. Can't be just "explained". Especially if what needs to be explained is subject to debate and is not defined.
Do you worship your parents? (Let's do Mitzvos to make our parents proud.)

Offline elit

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1184 on: July 25, 2017, 02:15:14 PM »
Do you worship your parents? (Let's do Mitzvos to make our parents proud.)
hate that

Offline thaber

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1185 on: July 25, 2017, 02:21:01 PM »
You know what was "other" for me? Finding out that many Chassidishe and Litvishe (Yeshivish?) Yidden do not know their Jewish birthdays. Mind blowing, actually.
Why? Is there an inyan outside of Chabad to know your birthday? I actually don't know mine, I was born around shkiah, no one remembers an exact time, and may be one of two days.
Or that a guy I know in Borough Park who trims his beard and is boki in every recent Hollywood release wears a black velvet yarmulke even though he is jealous of my dark burgundy velvet yarmulke, because, "Are you crazy? My kid will never get into a school!"
Seems very rational. three points:
1) not every one with a black/burgundy/ red/ yechi  yarmulka is a yorei shomayim (shocking I know)
2) not every one with a trim/shaved beard is not a yorei shomayim
3) getting your kids into school is important
Or that you willingly took a picture of seforim with a chumash sitting in middle that wasn't placed on top of the other seforim.
And you willingly criticized another yid without knowing a commonly practiced Aruch Hashulchan
One's other is another's mother.
I don't understand this line
Aruch Hashulchan
+1
Do you worship your parents? (Let's do Mitzvos to make our parents proud.)
actually never heard someone say that, except on a kids tape, and it strikes me as odd there too (so Tatty Mommy and  hashem will be so proud of me)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1186 on: July 25, 2017, 02:22:31 PM »
In other words, a massively complicated topic. Can't be just "explained". Especially if what needs to be explained is subject to debate and is not defined.

More importantly, "explaining" seems to be pointless, as people seem to have formulated their opinions and won't objectively look at things with an open mind, study the topic, research the background and then offer their opinions or observations based on that.

At the very least, people should admit to this, rather than claiming some Halachic or reason based backing for their attitude towards the subject.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1187 on: July 25, 2017, 02:28:17 PM »
actually never heard someone say that, except on a kids tape, and it strikes me as odd there too (so Tatty Mommy and  hashem will be so proud of me)
Meh, I think it just goes with the rhyming scheme of the song. It's the one about emes - can't imagine the idea of parents being proud of their children's behavior as more relevant to that middah than the rest of them.

Offline MeirS

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1188 on: July 25, 2017, 02:28:56 PM »
hate that


Actually never heard someone say that, except on a kids tape, and it strikes me as odd there too (so Tatty Mommy and  hashem will be so proud of me)

I don't have any kids yet but I'm sure every parent is proud when there kids do the right thing. I'm not married but I imagine a spouse takes pride in their spouse doing the right thing. A teacher is proud of his students when they go in the right way.
A Rebbe is proud of Chassidim when they do the right thing.
I don't see where "worshipping" comes into this picture.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1189 on: July 25, 2017, 02:33:32 PM »
Why? Is there an inyan outside of Chabad to know your birthday? I actually don't know mine, I was born around shkiah, no one remembers an exact time, and may be one of two days. Seems very rational. three points:
1) not every one with a black/burgundy/ red/ yechi  yarmulka is a yorei shomayim (shocking I know)
2) not every one with a trim/shaved beard is not a yorei shomayim
3) getting your kids into school is importantAnd you willingly criticized another yid without knowing a commonly practiced Aruch HashulchanI don't understand this line+1 actually never heard someone say that, except on a kids tape, and it strikes me as odd there too (so Tatty Mommy and  hashem will be so proud of me)

Thank you for making my point. I wasn't criticizing you, or the other people in the cases I mentioned. Exactly the opposite!

1) Jewish birthdays are so strongly emphasized in our world, to the point that it's not crazy that a Chabad kid won't know their secular DOB until they need to apply for a credit card passport or drivers license. That someone like you wouldn't know their Jewish birthday came as a big shock to me.

2) I fully understand why my friend doesn't wear the red Yarmulkeh, and agree with his decision. It was just a big surprise to me that so minor a detail would make or break his child's school admission.

3) Since a young age, it's been ingrained in me to put a Chumash on top of other seforim. That there was another perfectly acceptable way of doing things to me was "other."

4) I just came up with (what I thought was) a cute Freudian-like line for my point.
Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1190 on: July 25, 2017, 02:35:02 PM »
I don't have any kids yet but I'm sure every parent is proud when there kids do the right thing. I'm not married but I imagine a spouse takes pride in their spouse doing the right thing. A teacher is proud of his students when they go in the right way.
A Rebbe is proud of Chassidim when they do the right thing.
I don't see where "worshipping" comes into this picture.
It's not about parents being proud of their children, or even children doing the right thing so their parents will be proud - I assure you those concepts are universal. But I've never heard anyone say out loud (or write), I'm going to do XYZ mitzvah so my parents will be proud. It makes it seem like the primary motivation - instead of the more obvious "so Hashem will be 'proud'".

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1191 on: July 25, 2017, 02:42:11 PM »
It's not about parents being proud of their children, or even children doing the right thing so their parents will be proud - I assure you those concepts are universal. But I've never heard anyone say out loud (or write), I'm going to do XYZ mitzvah so my parents will be proud. It makes it seem like the primary motivation - instead of the more obvious "so Hashem will be 'proud'".

Not so sure that how many people would say (other than to kids) we will do XYZ to make the Rebbe proud, and when it is said it is generally not about a specific mitzvah, but rather a mivtzah - a campaign of the Rebbe.

As a matter of fact, if one follows (as in learns, not necessarily as in adheres to) the Rebbe's teaching, it is clear that we, as yidden, do mitzvos just because they were given to us, and by fulfilling them we are "lucky" to have the ability to connect to Hashem. See for example this and the sources quoted there.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline thaber

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1192 on: July 25, 2017, 02:56:01 PM »
Not so sure that how many people would say (other than to kids) we will do XYZ to make the Rebbe proud, and when it is said it is generally not about a specific mitzvah, but rather a mivtzah - a campaign of the Rebbe.

As a matter of fact, if one follows (as in learns, not necessarily as in adheres to) the Rebbe's teaching, it is clear that we, as yidden, do mitzvos just because they were given to us, and by fulfilling them we are "lucky" to have the ability to connect to Hashem. See for example this and the sources quoted there.
I think "ExGingi: Wrong. Bh you woke up, thanks to Hashem as explained in modeh ani and even more in depth in inyanei shel toras hachasidus. If you would understand that sicha properly you would know that one doesn't simply wake up, it's not us who wake up, but rather thanks to the brachas of the rebbe and Hashem's help we wake up." is the difficult concept for non Chasidim to grasp. Or in general the idea of the Rebbe as an intermediary, which is across all Chasidim, just more outspoken in Chabad.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1193 on: July 25, 2017, 02:58:08 PM »
I think "ExGingi: Wrong. Bh you woke up, thanks to Hashem as explained in modeh ani and even more in depth in inyanei shel toras hachasidus. If you would understand that sicha properly you would know that one doesn't simply wake up, it's not us who wake up, but rather thanks to the brachas of the rebbe and Hashem's help we wake up." is the difficult concept for non Chasidim to grasp. Or in general the idea of the Rebbe as an intermediary, which is across all Chasidim, just more outspoken in Chabad.
Whoa....

I remember where that quote comes from, please refer to it in context. Especially since I never said that!

The more we keep on going around this (and other threads that discuss Chassidus) the more I see the truth to what I wrote above:

More importantly, "explaining" seems to be pointless, as people seem to have formulated their opinions and won't objectively look at things with an open mind, study the topic, research the background and then offer their opinions or observations based on that.

At the very least, people should admit to this, rather than claiming some Halachic or reason based backing for their attitude towards the subject.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1194 on: July 25, 2017, 03:20:30 PM »
There are definitely those who view portions of Lubavitch as having gone off the deep end. Considering that I have seen a siddur from what seems to be a VERY fringe group (discussed elsewhere) which actually modified the 13 Ikarim there seems to be some truth on the extreme fringes.

There's only one problem with your story: Lubavitch siddurim (which are commonly available) do not have 13 Ikarim printed in them, so it's hard to associate whatever you might or might have not seen even remotely with Lubavitch.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 05:43:33 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1195 on: July 25, 2017, 03:24:53 PM »
There's only one problem with your story: Lubavitch siddurim do not have 13 Ikarim printed in them, so it's hard to associate whatever you might or might have not seen even remotely with Lubavitch.
As I said at the time that I originally mentioned it, it was over 20 years ago and my memory of exactly what it was is fuzzy.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1196 on: July 25, 2017, 03:28:41 PM »
It's a Kinos, it's that different?

Talking of which, I came across this website on Tisha B'Av last year while searching for Kinos that I can print in a clear format. I really appreciate the work done by the author, and his הקדמה is quite eye opening.

I exchanged some emails with the author, and he gives it away in PDF for free (though he asked that people are referred to him to request a copy, rather than share actual file, so he has an idea of distribution).

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline thaber

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1197 on: July 25, 2017, 03:30:25 PM »
Whoa....

I remember where that quote comes from, please refer to it in context. Especially since I never said that!

The more we keep on going around this (and other threads that discuss Chassidus) the more I see the truth to what I wrote above:

Hey, I'm a through and through litvack and have two volumes of Likutei Sichos on my desk, don't accuse me of being unobjective or not having an open mind. :) (and yes I spent several hours with them this week).
I'm sorry for the lack of context, Google was giving me a hard time. I know the context and was just referencing what had thrown CBC for a loop

Offline henche

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1198 on: July 25, 2017, 03:35:11 PM »
Hey, I'm a through and through litvack and have two volumes of Likutei Sichos on my desk, don't accuse me of being unobjective or not having an open mind. :) (and yes I spent several hours with them this week).
I'm sorry for the lack of context, Google was giving me a hard time. I know the context and was just referencing what had thrown CBC for a loop

I dare say that you are no true Scotsman. 

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1199 on: July 25, 2017, 03:35:36 PM »
Now that more people joined in it is time for me to leave. I do think you are wrong about this

At the very least, people should admit to this, rather than claiming some Halachic or reason based backing for their attitude towards the subject.
for some but not nearly all. Those who start arguing about whether Moshiach can or can't be someone who is no longer living from either perspective is missing the boat. It is not that clear cut of a question. The first step in anyone coming to any understanding or being able to explain their perspective to those with a differing one is going to be to understand on some level what the differing perspective is. That has been rare.

My understanding is that much revolves around the question of what exactly was wrong with Sabbateanism. Was it simply that they were wrong (how do we know that?) or is it much deeper than that?
Feelings don't care about your facts