Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 143113 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53403
  • Total likes: 2347
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1335 on: July 27, 2017, 04:47:31 PM »
You guys are definitely due a visit to LA, but after those statements maybe bring body armor.
Lol, there's a reason it's called Klipafornia.
And I came for a week earlier this year and it rained almost every day :P

IIRC that's when he lost mainstream backing.
Yup.

Mussar is not depressing, it's uplifting. Common Hasidic misconception :)
As a 13 year old, hearing how our class was going to burn in hell just didn't do it for me.
Different strokes for different folks?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3812
  • Total likes: 379
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1336 on: July 27, 2017, 04:53:46 PM »
What does mussar have to do with suicide and gan Eden?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.

-1
I am so not surprised that someone who is depressed would get more involved in mussar and it would feed in a loop

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53403
  • Total likes: 2347
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1337 on: July 27, 2017, 04:55:48 PM »
What does mussar have to do with suicide and gan Eden?
I'm so confused. You definitely are hanging out with the wrong crowd.
Mussar is not depressing, it's uplifting. Common Hasidic misconception :)
Saying they're the wrong crowd or that they don't exist is just cognitive dissonance.
Clearly you need to work on your image or do more to denounce the fringe ;)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3812
  • Total likes: 379
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1338 on: July 27, 2017, 05:00:54 PM »
Saying they're the wrong crowd or that they don't exist is just cognitive dissonance.
Clearly you need to work on your image or do more to denounce the fringe ;)

Being depressed with mussar is not fringe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisroel_Salanter

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2795
  • Total likes: 132
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1339 on: July 27, 2017, 05:10:24 PM »
As a 13 year old, hearing how our class was going to burn in hell just didn't do it for me.
Different strokes for different folks?
that's not uplifting? :)
In the Yeshiva world Mussar is the study of self development, which is uplifting. Not fear mongering, which is not. Will OCD people feed into that @henche? maybe. But that's not what it is, in the colloquial sense, wikipedia notwithstanding.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3812
  • Total likes: 379
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1340 on: July 27, 2017, 05:13:56 PM »
that's not uplifting? :)
In the Yeshiva world Mussar is the study of self development, which is uplifting. Not fear mongering, which is not. Will OCD people feed into that @henche? maybe. But that's not what it is, in the colloquial sense, wikipedia notwithstanding.

Hey, I don't make the rules, I just break them.
 
I spent a very long time in the "yeshiva world" and I seen what I seen.

Did you see what I was referencing?

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3812
  • Total likes: 379
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1341 on: July 27, 2017, 05:37:47 PM »
Should we have a spin-off Lunacy Among Litvaks?

Nah, more ppl will see it here.

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 1176
  • Total likes: 983
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1342 on: July 27, 2017, 05:45:11 PM »
Should we have a spin-off Lunacy Among Litvaks?

Nah, more ppl will see it here.

Lunatic Litvaks - Now there's a show that needs to go on the road.
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6020
  • Total likes: 981
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1343 on: July 27, 2017, 07:23:17 PM »
Maybe Exgingi can weigh in, but he's prob on the defending side :P

At @jj1000's request, I will weigh in. Though I am not sure who he might think I am defending. I am also definitely not an authority on Chassidus, nor am I an arbiter of who is or isn't Lubavitch (FWIW, I would challenge anyone who threw around the labels "Lubavitch" or "Chabad" claiming that someone is or someone isn't, to explain how he became the arbiter of this, or who is the arbiter he is relying upon).

I've taken hands off for a short while, as I wanted to see how different people would respond. I thank @Dan for putting together what seems to be a synopsis of this thread. I had originally intended to go back and read it on Tisha B'Av, and while I have actually started and gone through the first 10 pages (and found it interesting that @Lamdan who was alerted to his 770 post count, seems to have been deprecated to 749  ;) - sorry outsiders, you've got to be an insider to appreciate that one), this synopsis was helpful.

I will also admit, that I didn't view the video before posting, the link was sent to me, and I watched the first few minutes, saw that he's mostly reading quotes, so I figured that it can't be too bad, as I will never try to deny or try to twist anything the Rebbe wrote or said.

I have gone back and listened to the entire thing now, and read what has been posted since, and have the following takeaways.

CBC isn't doing any good to his arguments by stating something that is simply not there even in the video. We can discuss or argue about what is there, you aren't making yourself any more credible by stating something that isn't even there ("walk on water").

@Dan might not "see the good from the yellow flag movement" and said he may be called anti for that (as a side note, from the first 10 pages of this thread that I read, I've seen @Dan use that word several times, and was wondering how does the concept of "anti" jive with Lubavitch philosophy, and for that matter even "live and let live" in a certain context doesn't seem congruent with Lubavitch teachings). And while I have my personal opinions about the yellow flags, there are quite a few Chabad Houses (or mushrooms, as some might call them) around the world (especially in India, some in Latin America, and other places) that have done very good. I've never been to the Ritzaliya, but every time I am in Israel, I visit Herzliya. That Chabad House is pretty famous for the intensity of Yechi. FWIW It happens to actually be a "non-mushroom", and is lead by a tremendous תלמיד חכם, who has built an amazing קהילה, that could be the pride of many. His weekly shiur in Likutey Torah, as well as other shiurim and farbrengens are available on this YouTube channel.  Has anyone who has been to the Ritzaliya ever benefitted from Chabad of Herzliya? I would also encourage anyone to see the fruit of the yeshiva in Ramat Aviv, many of whom started off in Chabad Houses across India.

In a certain way, one might equate @Dan's statement about not seeing anything worthwhile but restaurants "from yellow flag unofficial chabad houses across the globe :P" (sorry, I am no expert on emoji's and aren't sure how to interpret that one), to how Dr. Dahan paraphrases the Rebbe in the video, saying that if one doesn't see the Rebbe, it is not because there was any real change with the Rebbe, but rather because the viewer is limited.

@Boruch999 is being intellectually honest, in admitting that he is "not at all educated in Toras Chasidus." and that "To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain" (sic). As I have pointed out several times, in order to be able to make an argument one way or the other, it would be beneficial to at least have a cursory knowledge of what Toras Hachassidus says. As for the "frighteningly Christian", it is very unfortunate that the lack of understanding of Chassidus (and possibly also of Christianity, I wouldn't know), combined with Dr. Dahan's interpretations, half-quotes, or even unanswered questions (such as the "question" he asks at 6:31 - which is simply and truthfully answered with this), would obviously make "the unitiated litvak" feel that way. However, rather than draw conclusions (as others might have), it would be more beneficial to look up the quotes he brings (not too hard these days when GIYF), see them in context, along with the מראי מקומות, before commenting. @Dan's response that "anything can be twisted" does little to contribute. Rather post a link to this where the quote Dr. Dahan brings can be seen in its full context, along with the footnotes.

My dear friend @aygart is totally off base when talking about factions. He seems to be limiting himself to using his own logic and limited knowledge and understanding, rather than willing to actually dig into what's going on, and the underlying quotes, which would seem so atypical for him, but for when it comes to Chassidus. This was well elucidated by CBC. I can easily see that attitude leading one to denounce or even decry Eliyohu Hanovi's actions on Har Hacarmel, and possibly even to call the Rambam an apikuros and denounce not only his philosophy and teachings, but even his actions and rulings (I just recently read that he was mevatel חזרת הש"ץ on Shabbos and YomTov, something that was only restored in Mitzraim some 350 years later!).

Despite pointing out @aygart, CBC seems to be somewhat guilty of the same, when Dr. Dahan mentions the machlokes about צמצום כפשוטו or צמצום לאו כפשוטו (regardless of where he takes that). Are you at all familiar with the concept or some of the sources regarding this?

It cannot be stressed enough, that the trap of labeling or name calling, results falling into the trap of answering questions that should not be answered, not because there is nothing to answer, but because they are relying on hollow labels, attaching assumptions to those, etc. etc.

Also, a point that cannot be left unmentioned, is the constant mixing up (not to mention homogenizing) of terms, labels, groups, etc. Not everyone that says Yechi bares a yellow flag, not everyone that bares a yellow flag and says Yechi doesn't go to the Ohel, not everyone that goes to the Ohel or says Yechi, or bares a yellow flag would be called a Lubavitcher (or Chabad) by those who have been using those titles here (or deemed non-Lubavitchers or non-Chabad). That is one of the reasons why it is totally pointless to discuss "sects" or "factions" but rather one could debate Torah and/or ideology.

Also, taking everything Dr. Dahan is quoting/saying and pinning it to "3 wackos that live in tzfas", is any less twisting than what Dr. Dahan or others might be doing. I am not saying that there aren't "wackos" out there, but most Chasidim or the Rebbe wouldn't be considered "wackos" by most people, yet would stand behind the quotes in proper context, even if they were to sound "out of line" to "the uninitiated litvak".

And while I agree with @Dan that rather than one listening to the way Dr. Dahan reads and interprets מצוות מינוי מלך as explain in דרך מצוותיך, one should go to a local person who is capable of learning the actual source with you, since we know that it might not happen, at the very least, [urlhttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16082&st=&pgnum=225]look up the sefer[/url] (and while you're at it you might want to learn some other fundamental concepts in brought in the rest of the sefer) , and/or some online shuirim rather than take the word of an academic with an agenda (are there any without?).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 07:26:55 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53403
  • Total likes: 2347
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1344 on: July 27, 2017, 07:30:49 PM »
Pretty sure @jj1000 was just looking for a summary of the court case about who controls 770's basement :)
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6020
  • Total likes: 981
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1345 on: July 27, 2017, 07:32:37 PM »
Pretty sure @jj1000 was just looking for a summary of the court case about who controls 770's basement :)
Let him speak for himself on that one, but I think the judge on that one brilliantly got out of ruling on it.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53403
  • Total likes: 2347
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1346 on: July 27, 2017, 07:33:06 PM »
Let him speak for himself on that one, but I think the judge on that one brilliantly got out of ruling on it.
Link?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7162
  • Total likes: 270
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1347 on: July 27, 2017, 07:36:40 PM »
@exg, "walking on water" was a cynical comment that bh you missed.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6861
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1348 on: July 27, 2017, 07:38:49 PM »
My dear friend @aygart is totally off base when talking about factions. He seems to be limiting himself to using his own logic and limited knowledge and understanding, rather than willing to actually dig into what's going on, and the underlying quotes, which would seem so atypical for him, but for when it comes to Chassidus. This was well elucidated by CBC.
Sort of guilty as charged, except that I prefaced it and was consistent throughout that the view from the outside is important here. Part of why I do not dig in to the underlying quotes is that I have seen from many items posted by @ExGingi that I am missing much of the background behind them and would not be able to properly understand them without spending way more time than I have available. Even with spending the time to truly understand one would need to actually live it. THat is a bit much to ask.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6861
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1349 on: July 27, 2017, 07:39:42 PM »
@exg, "walking on water" was a cynical comment that bh you missed.
Until now that you pointed it out to him.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.