Messianism among Lubavitch

[EJB]

Actually it does. Go read through the first half of this thread.

I wish I had time to read 50 pages of posts. But the recent ones all make logical leaps and misread sources, so even if I had the time to read 50 pages, I wouldn't subject myself to that.

[Dan]

You've gotta be kidding me. Have you read the "sources?" For one, only one of them actually calls someone "mashiach." I'm sure you'll find hundreds of sources talking about qualities and elements of mashiach, as these do. But to say that virtually every chassiic sect believes their rebbi is mashiach (none of the sources referenced said that manhig hador = mashiach, btw), and if not, there is something lacking in their rebbe-chosid relationship? That's a stretch. I'm not saying it's wrong to think that (though after death is another story), but I don't think it's a universal concept.

If you're not a Chosid then I can't explain it to you on one leg and this is nothing but silly speculation.
If you are a Chosid, besides Satmar, feel free to post your thoughts.

[Baruch]

The quotes from the sefarim above are very weak, they say that a tzaddik has a nitzutz of moshiach etc.


And the whole idea, that each Chasiddus can believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach (even though there's only 1 Moshiach [ben david]), reminds me of when Cee Lo Green's changed the words of 'Imagine' from "and no religion too", to "and all religions true".

[EJB]

If you're not a Chosid then I can't explain it to you on one leg.
If you are a Chosid, besides Satmar, feel free to post your thoughts.

Ah, so now if we're not chassidim, we can't understand or comment? You should then set access restrictions for this board.

[Dan]

Ah, so now if we're not chassidim, we can't understand or comment? You should then set access restrictions for this board.

You can comment all you want, but you're arguing with a Belzer Chosid based on what exactly? Nothing but your own lack of knowledge in this topic.
To properly understand a Rebbe-Chosid relationship you need to learn years of chasidus.

If I start arguing about actuarial concepts that I don't understand it would also be meaningless.

[Baruch]

You can comment all you want, but you're arguing with a Belzer Chosid based on what exactly? Nothing but your own lack of knowledge in this topic.

Sometime in the few year lull of this thread, I asked my 90 year great uncle, the dayan of one of the biggest Chassidus in the world if this was true, and he told me it's "shtissim".

[Dan]

Sometime in the few year lull of this thread, I asked my 90 year great uncle, the dayan of one of the biggest Chassidus in the world if this was true, and he told me it's "shtissim".

Which chasidus exactly? I'm well aware that Satmar is an outlier here.
And where is the logical fallacy, that a Chosid doesn't have to believe their Rebbe is the Nosi/Manhig hador or that the Nosi/Manhig hador isn't the moshiach of the dor?

[EJB]

You can comment all you want, but you're arguing with a Belzer Chosid based on what exactly? Nothing but your own lack of knowledge in this topic.

Based on him making a statement, and backing it up with sources that do not support the statement. Why is my background relevant to someone making weak and unsopported points?

And just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, you say "And the nosi/manhig ha'dor is the moshiach of that dor." What do you mean by the moshiach of that dor?

[Dan]

To summarize exgingi and Dan's aurguments about the quotes and actions analyzed and studied by high level academics: these are very deep ideas with multiple meanings etc. Taken out of context etc.

Well I'll just say this; if these academics were so vastly wrongs, it's no wonder that massive sects of chabbad chassidim are totally confused also...maybe these ideas, teachings, actions, leanings, cryptic remarks etc etc are indeed misleading ? Maybe they shouldn't be shoved down young boys throats with a half a bottle of mashkeh?

You claimed it wasn't simple because Dan and others said scholars don't understand it, well you claim scholars don't understand where the torah came from, you realize someone else would say to you that clearly there is a problem if many scholars can't even understand it. And it's not something you should be teaching your kids because it's too confusing. And look thousands of people that raise their kids like that go off the derech, do drugs, commit suicide etc.

I hope this makes sense.

My point simply is that just because some people turn out a certain way it 1. doesn't mean causation but rather correlation, and 2. Just because things may seam one way doesn't mean we don't do it. Such as with teaching any religion, just because X amount of people turn out a certain way doesn't mean that the thing itself is bad.

Imagine what the academics say about Gemara!
We should definitely not teach young kids Torah when so many are going OTD and there are such fine academics that have come out against it!

[Dan]

Based on him making a statement, and backing it up with sources that do not support the statement. Why is my background relevant to someone making weak and unsopported points?

And just to make sure we're all talking about the same thing, you say "And the nosi/manhig ha'dor is the moshiach of that dor." What do you mean by the moshiach of that dor?

This is like you finding a thread in a forum about black culture and then telling them their sources are all wrong and they don't believe what they say they beleive.
SI had basis in this discussion as a Belzer Chosid. You're telling me that I'm wrong and that he's wrong because of what exactly? You're not satisfied with the people he spoke to or the small amount of sources he gave on a whim on a forum?
You literally have zero basis on this topic.

[Baruch]

Which chasidus exactly? I'm well aware that Satmar is an outlier here.
And where is the logical fallacy, that a Chosid doesn't have to believe their Rebbe is the Nosi/Manhig hador or that the Nosi/Manhig hador isn't the moshiach of the dor?

not Satmar

[Dan]

not Satmar

Why is it a secret?
And again, which part of those 2 parts contains the alleged fallacy?

[jj1000]

[EJB]

This is like you finding a thread in a forum about black culture and then telling them their sources are all wrong and they don't believe what they say they beleive.
You literally have zero basis on this topic.

Go right ahead - Why don't you support your arguments by quoting the declaration of independence. Despite the fact that the declaration of independence is completely irrelevant and doesn't support your points at all, since you are chabad then what you're saying about chassidism must be true. And I can't argue against that since I'm not chabad.

If that's how you think one should argue it's not worth my time getting into a debate with you. You're right - because you're chabad and I obviously can't read and understand hebrew.

[Baruch]

Why is it a secret?
And again, which part of those 2 parts contains the alleged fallacy?

I prefer to remain anonymous.

I asked him if Chassidim think that their Rebbe is Mashiach, and if it's true that there's an inyan for a chassid to think his Rebbe is mashiach, and he replied "shtissim".

[Dan]

Go right ahead - Why don't you support your arguments by quoting the declaration of independence. Since you are chabad, despite the fact that the declaration of independence is completely irrelevant and doesn't support your points at all, since you are chabad then what you're saying about chassidism must be true. And I can't argue against that since I'm not chabad.

If that's how you think one should argue it's not worth my time getting into a debate with you. You're right - because you're chabad and I obviously can't read and understand hebrew.

A Belzer Chosid heard this from his Rebbe. And your argument against that is what exactly?
This isn't something that gets publicized and plastered on the walls unless you're a yellow flagger. It's an outcome of being a Chosid.
If you aren't a Chosid you won't comprehend it any better than I will comprehend black culture.

[Dan]

I prefer to remain anonymous.

I asked him if Chassidim think that their Rebbe is Mashiach, and if it's true that there's an inyan for a chassid to think his Rebbe is mashiach, and he replied "shtissim".

Without knowing the sect it doesn't really help anything.
But regardless, ask him the 2 part question please.

[aygart]

Imagine what the academics say about Gemara!
We should definitely not teach young kids Torah when so many are going OTD and there are such fine academics that have come out against it!

These are ridiculous arguments that have zero to do with what CBC wrote. They clearly broadcast your cognitive dissonance. Try to understand what he wrote for a few minutes before shooting from the hip

[churnbabychurn]

Sometime in the few year lull of this thread, I asked my 90 year great uncle, the dayan of one of the biggest Chassidus in the world if this was true, and he told me it's "shtissim".

One story of 1 Rebbe who said that him and his friends thought their praticular Rebbe was Moshiach, is not a proof to be able to make such a broad statement. Nor are a few random quotes in a few random sefarim

And there definitely was never a Chassidus that was so public about their Rebbe being Moshiach.

And why weren't the Chassidim of the Baal HaTanya singing "Yechi"?

This is the only subject where I hear you making claims that aren't solid. It's so un"Dan"like.

Btw, not at all meshichists, but I've noticed over the years that viznitz also has extreme elements that have a suspicious relationship with their Rebbe. - not chabbad style, but still troubling. 

[Dan]

These are ridiculous arguments that have zero to do with what CBC wrote. They clearly broadcast your cognitive dissonance. Try to understand what he wrote for a few minutes before shooting from the hip

His argument: Because an academic doesn't know how to learn chasidus, you shouldn't teach chasidus because it can be misinterpreted too easily. And the proof is that some Lubavitchers waive yellow flags?

Since when do we base our teachings on what the academics say or how they twist Torah?

Nobody is going off the deep end because of Tanya or Derech Mitzvosecha.