Messianism among Lubavitch

[Baruch]

Without knowing the sect it doesn't really help anything.
But regardless, ask him the 2 part question please.

I pmed you the sect.

I don't have a "call him up and ask a random question" relationship with him. If I meet him at a simcha I'll bl"n ask him.

I plan on davening in a chassidic shteeble tommorow, chassidim from all sects daven there, I plan on doing a survey, if they believe their Rebbe is Mashiach. (If they say "he could be", that means nothing, I would say the same thing about Rav Chaim Kanievsky.)

[Dan]

Btw, not at all meshichists, but I've noticed over the years that viznitz also has extreme elements that have a suspicious relationship with their Rebbe. - not chabbad style, but still troubling. 

Suspicious 

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.

[henche]

At @jj1000's request, I will weigh in. Though I am not sure who he might think I am defending. I am also definitely not an authority on Chassidus, nor am I an arbiter of who is or isn't Lubavitch (FWIW, I would challenge anyone who threw around the labels "Lubavitch" or "Chabad" claiming that someone is or someone isn't, to explain how he became the arbiter of this, or who is the arbiter he is relying upon).

I've taken hands off for a short while, as I wanted to see how different people would respond. I thank @Dan for putting together what seems to be a synopsis of this thread. I had originally intended to go back and read it on Tisha B'Av, and while I have actually started and gone through the first 10 pages (and found it interesting that @Lamdan who was alerted to his 770 post count, seems to have been deprecated to 749  - sorry outsiders, you've got to be an insider to appreciate that one), this synopsis was helpful.

I will also admit, that I didn't view the video before posting, the link was sent to me, and I watched the first few minutes, saw that he's mostly reading quotes, so I figured that it can't be too bad, as I will never try to deny or try to twist anything the Rebbe wrote or said.

I have gone back and listened to the entire thing now, and read what has been posted since, and have the following takeaways.

CBC isn't doing any good to his arguments by stating something that is simply not there even in the video. We can discuss or argue about what is there, you aren't making yourself any more credible by stating something that isn't even there ("walk on water").

@Dan might not "see the good from the yellow flag movement" and said he may be called anti for that (as a side note, from the first 10 pages of this thread that I read, I've seen @Dan use that word several times, and was wondering how does the concept of "anti" jive with Lubavitch philosophy, and for that matter even "live and let live" in a certain context doesn't seem congruent with Lubavitch teachings). And while I have my personal opinions about the yellow flags, there are quite a few Chabad Houses (or mushrooms, as some might call them) around the world (especially in India, some in Latin America, and other places) that have done very good. I've never been to the Ritzaliya, but every time I am in Israel, I visit Herzliya. That Chabad House is pretty famous for the intensity of Yechi. FWIW It happens to actually be a "non-mushroom", and is lead by a tremendous תלמיד חכם, who has built an amazing קהילה, that could be the pride of many. His weekly shiur in Likutey Torah, as well as other shiurim and farbrengens are available on this YouTube channel.  Has anyone who has been to the Ritzaliya ever benefitted from Chabad of Herzliya? I would also encourage anyone to see the fruit of the yeshiva in Ramat Aviv, many of whom started off in Chabad Houses across India.

In a certain way, one might equate @Dan's statement about not seeing anything worthwhile but restaurants "from yellow flag unofficial chabad houses across the globe " (sorry, I am no expert on emoji's and aren't sure how to interpret that one), to how Dr. Dahan paraphrases the Rebbe in the video, saying that if one doesn't see the Rebbe, it is not because there was any real change with the Rebbe, but rather because the viewer is limited.

@Boruch999 is being intellectually honest, in admitting that he is "not at all educated in Toras Chasidus." and that "To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain" (sic). As I have pointed out several times, in order to be able to make an argument one way or the other, it would be beneficial to at least have a cursory knowledge of what Toras Hachassidus says. As for the "frighteningly Christian", it is very unfortunate that the lack of understanding of Chassidus (and possibly also of Christianity, I wouldn't know), combined with Dr. Dahan's interpretations, half-quotes, or even unanswered questions (such as the "question" he asks at 6:31 - which is simply and truthfully answered with this), would obviously make "the unitiated litvak" feel that way. However, rather than draw conclusions (as others might have), it would be more beneficial to look up the quotes he brings (not too hard these days when GIYF), see them in context, along with the מראי מקומות, before commenting. @Dan's response that "anything can be twisted" does little to contribute. Rather post a link to this where the quote Dr. Dahan brings can be seen in its full context, along with the footnotes.

My dear friend @aygart is totally off base when talking about factions. He seems to be limiting himself to using his own logic and limited knowledge and understanding, rather than willing to actually dig into what's going on, and the underlying quotes, which would seem so atypical for him, but for when it comes to Chassidus. This was well elucidated by CBC. I can easily see that attitude leading one to denounce or even decry Eliyohu Hanovi's actions on Har Hacarmel, and possibly even to call the Rambam an apikuros and denounce not only his philosophy and teachings, but even his actions and rulings (I just recently read that he was mevatel חזרת הש"ץ on Shabbos and YomTov, something that was only restored in Mitzraim some 350 years later!).

Despite pointing out @aygart, CBC seems to be somewhat guilty of the same, when Dr. Dahan mentions the machlokes about צמצום כפשוטו or צמצום לאו כפשוטו (regardless of where he takes that). Are you at all familiar with the concept or some of the sources regarding this?

It cannot be stressed enough, that the trap of labeling or name calling, results falling into the trap of answering questions that should not be answered, not because there is nothing to answer, but because they are relying on hollow labels, attaching assumptions to those, etc. etc.

Also, a point that cannot be left unmentioned, is the constant mixing up (not to mention homogenizing) of terms, labels, groups, etc. Not everyone that says Yechi bares a yellow flag, not everyone that bares a yellow flag and says Yechi doesn't go to the Ohel, not everyone that goes to the Ohel or says Yechi, or bares a yellow flag would be called a Lubavitcher (or Chabad) by those who have been using those titles here (or deemed non-Lubavitchers or non-Chabad). That is one of the reasons why it is totally pointless to discuss "sects" or "factions" but rather one could debate Torah and/or ideology.

Also, taking everything Dr. Dahan is quoting/saying and pinning it to "3 wackos that live in tzfas", is any less twisting than what Dr. Dahan or others might be doing. I am not saying that there aren't "wackos" out there, but most Chasidim or the Rebbe wouldn't be considered "wackos" by most people, yet would stand behind the quotes in proper context, even if they were to sound "out of line" to "the uninitiated litvak".

And while I agree with @Dan that rather than one listening to the way Dr. Dahan reads and interprets מצוות מינוי מלך as explain in דרך מצוותיך, one should go to a local person who is capable of learning the actual source with you, since we know that it might not happen, at the very least, [urlhttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16082&st=&pgnum=225]look up the sefer[/url] (and while you're at it you might want to learn some other fundamental concepts in brought in the rest of the sefer) , and/or some online shuirim rather than take the word of an academic with an agenda (are there any without?).

what about @henche?

[churnbabychurn]

Suspicious 

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.

[jj1000]

Suspicious 

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.

There is a Korach in every generation

[churnbabychurn]

what about @henche?

+1

[Dan]

I pmed you the sect.

I don't have a "call him up and ask a random question" relationship with him. If I meet him at a simcha I'll bl"n ask him.

I plan on davening in a chassidic shteeble tommorow, chassidim from all sects daven there, I plan on doing a survey, if they believe their Rebbe is Mashiach. (If they say "he could be", that means nothing, I would say the same thing about Rav Chaim Kanievsky.)

1. I and most Lubavitchers say "could be" about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, so how in the world does that mean nothing?!?
2. Ask the 2 part question. Do you regard your Rebbe as the Manhig/Nosi Hador? Is the Manhig/Nosi Hador the Moshiach Hador?
Most Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.

[churnbabychurn]

I think I linked another​ weird viznitz thing somewhere in the forums over years..  gonna take some real digging to find

[henche]

And if you don't believe your Rebbe to be nosi/manhig hador, that there's something missing in your Rebbe-Chosid relationship.

I'm not a chossid, but this statement is astounding to me.  There's ten or 20 major rebbes and hundreds of minor rebbes, and how could each chossid think their rebbe is the objective nosi/manhig hador and all the the other chassidim are wrong?

Litvaks don't believe their rosh yeshiva or rov is the nosi/manhig hador, unless they're weirdos. 

[ExGingi]

what about @henche?

Must have been lost in the noise. Will try to look up and give a בן יחיד treatment.

[Dan]

I'm not a chossid, but this statement is astounding to me.  There's ten or 20 major rebbes and hundreds of minor rebbes, and how could each chossid think their rebbe is the objective nosi/manhig hador and all the the other chassidim are wrong?

Litvaks don't believe their rosh yeshiva or rov is the nosi/manhig hador, unless they're weirdos. 

This was one of the majot tainos tainos against chasidus.
Nothing new under the sun.

[Baruch]

1. I and most Lubavitchers say "could be" about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, so how in the world does that mean nothing?!?
2. Ask the 2 part question. Do you regard your Rebbe as the Manhig/Nosi Hador? Is the Manhig/Nosi Hador the Moshiach Hador?
Most Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.

When the Rebbe was alive, Lubavitchers didn't say "could be".

And your first point and second point are a stira minei ubei, why is it "could be" if  he's the nasi hador which is the mashiach of the dor.

[ExGingi]

Unfortunately Most Yidden Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.

FTFY

[mgarfin]

Just to clarify this on of the 3 viznitz and the smallest one

[Baruch]

I'm not a chossid, but this statement is astounding to me.  There's ten or 20 major rebbes and hundreds of minor rebbes, and how could each chossid think their rebbe is the objective nosi/manhig hador and all the the other chassidim are wrong?

Litvaks don't believe their rosh yeshiva or rov is the nosi/manhig hador, unless they're weirdos.

And the whole idea, that each Chasiddus can believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach (even though there's only 1 Moshiach [ben david]), reminds me of when Cee Lo Green's changed the words of 'Imagine' from "and no religion too", to "and all religions true".

[churnbabychurn]

The whole concept of "nosi hador" is an invention. It makes no sense and is misleading. Wholly unesessary term.

[ExGingi]

When the Rebbe was alive, Lubavitchers didn't say "could be".

And your first sentence and second sentence are a stira minei ubei, why is it "could be" if  he's the nasi hador which is the mashiach of the dor.

+1.5

[Dan]

Just to clarify this on of the 3 viznitz and the smallest one

And the other viznitz don't believe their Rebbe is the manhig/nosi hador?

[jj1000]

1. I and most Lubavitchers say "could be" about the Lubavitcher Rebbe, so how in the world does that mean nothing?!?
2. Ask the 2 part question. Do you regard your Rebbe as the Manhig/Nosi Hador? Is the Manhig/Nosi Hador the Moshiach Hador?
Most Chasidim don't koch in Moshiach and likely don't think in those terms off the bat. It doesn't matter to them, but the logical reasoning leads to that.

Honestly I don't think a survey about this subject would work. For many people this is a deeply personal thing and while they may believe it in their heart they don't talk about it in public. As is the case with many Lubavitchers.

[Dan]

When the Rebbe was alive, Lubavitchers didn't say "could be".

And your first point and second point are a stira minei ubei, why is it "could be" if  he's the nasi hador which is the mashiach of the dor.

The obvious question is how to define dor. Will there be yellow flaggers in 60 years from now?