Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 139943 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1470 on: July 28, 2017, 07:53:52 AM »
Key words, which unfortunately tie heavily into what the Novomisker wrote.

The fact is that the direct talmidim of the Gr"a weren't proud of it.

And you really think that something that results in messira and murder isn't a mistake. If it's not a mistake, is it actually something worse?
Speaking of results... Ironically, The common view amongst misnagdim today, is that maybe in past generations we didn't necessarily full understand the severeness of the hisnagdus. But after seeing the churban of chabbad (and maybe breslev to a lesser degree) over the last 100 years, we see bechush the forsight of the misnagdim.

@aygart seems to have been posting this recently,but he's too diplomatic about it. ;)

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1471 on: July 28, 2017, 08:00:32 AM »
Who introduced Gadol Hador?
The gemara
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1472 on: July 28, 2017, 08:02:45 AM »
As I've said before, it's a natural outcome in Chabad as well as in other Chassidus. It's not something that's openly stated anywhere, it's completely toluy b'hergesh.
Hmmmm I've also did similar to that calling it a logical conclusion.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1473 on: July 28, 2017, 08:03:42 AM »
Just to give you a better night..

Actually, since tov lo lodom shelo nivra yoser mishenivra, it is actually very logical to want to die asap as long as gan Eden is guaranteed!


You are ignoring the end vachshav shenivro
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1474 on: July 28, 2017, 08:09:05 AM »
How many Lubavichers do you know that won't ever say the Rebbe is mashiach in public but will tell you behind closed doors after a few shots? Thousands probably?

No reason the same can't apply elsewhere.
If they feel that way then why does it need a few shots?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1475 on: July 28, 2017, 08:10:24 AM »
Suspicious  ::)

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.
Some who revered him couldn't handle it when he was a day late and made a golden calf.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1476 on: July 28, 2017, 08:19:17 AM »
I've been in the Litveshe world for over 30 years and never heard this idea come up. It seems like you met a weird guy once.

יפה שעה אחת בתשובה ומעשים טובים בעולם הזה, מכל חיי העולם הבא
And fwiw I've never personally met anyone elokistim so for cbc to think that's what people think in private sounds ludacris to me. But I'm sure he knows better.

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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1477 on: July 28, 2017, 08:26:45 AM »
Speaking of results... Ironically, The common view amongst misnagdim today, is that maybe in past generations we didn't necessarily full understand the severeness of the hisnagdus. But after seeing the churban of chabbad (and maybe breslev to a lesser degree) over the last 100 years, we see bechush the forsight of the misnagdim.

@aygart seems to have been posting this recently,but he's too diplomatic about it. ;)


Some who revered him couldn't handle it when he was a day late and made a golden calf.
I feel like this thread is coming in a big circle now albeit getting a bit nastier and less wanting an explanation than wanting a shtech.

When reading this thread and seeing there is halachic basis that moshiach can be from the dead, meaning there is not a halachic problem with believing that. Then how would that justify the misnagdim of old.

There has to be a clear distinction of something against halacha and something within the confines of halacha. If something is within the confines of halacha than it's really not fair to say this is why chassidus was a problem.

I think most people I talked to over the years that say the gaon was worried about chabad 200 years in the future believing their Rebbe is moshiach after he passed away (although I haven't seen that written anywhere from that time,  I'd be interested in seeing it if it was) just doesn't jive with the fact that there are halachic sources for it.

The whole talk about what other chassidim believe or admit, and many other side topics here are really off topic and side talks if the meat and potatoes of this thread.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1478 on: July 28, 2017, 08:41:43 AM »
I think it's safe to say that this post has jumped the shark and descended into some weird witch-hunt.

It's doing nothing to change anyone's mind and the discussion is only causing the opposite of ahavas yisroel and helping out your fellow Jew to improve this world.

Thanks again to Side Incomer for enlightening us with alternate views from the other Chasidic courts and for proving that Chabad's belief system is within the realm of standard chasidic thought.

I apologize to anyone I offended, obviously this is a topic that causes very hot heads.  I hope you'll forgive me and I hope you'll be more open-inded and more willing to be dan l'kav zchus as well.

My only plea is that you stop worrying so much about what OTHERS are doing wrong and start worrying about what YOU can do right.

L'chaim.

I'm locking this, if someone doesn't want it locked PM me, but I'm pretty sure most would like it locked again from the feedback I am getting. Nothing new is being discussed.
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