Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 144730 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 02:32:53 PM »
He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
Sorry, but until we're all gathered together in Israel in front of the 3rd Bais Hamikdash I don't think you can positively say someone is mashiach, though I'm sure there are a minority of Lubavitchers that believe that he has to be mashiach.

To which I ask, if someone else gathers us together today in Israel in front of the 3rd Bais Hamikdash would you not accept him because he's not the Rebbe?  I'm sure you would manage just fine and be able to ask Eliyahu and the Rebbe any questions you may have on the matter.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 02:59:41 PM »
I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead.

Is the halachic (is that the right word for this?) basis for mashiach coming from the dead something that is muskam lakol among chabad? Or other chasidim, or even misnagdim for that matter?

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 03:04:23 PM »
Is the halachic (is that the right word for this?) basis for mashiach coming from the dead something that is muskam lakol among chabad? Or other chasidim, or even misnagdim for that matter?
Tzemach appears to tackle this issue well here: http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73
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Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 03:26:59 PM »
Is the halachic (is that the right word for this?) basis for mashiach coming from the dead something that is muskam lakol among chabad? Or other chasidim, or even misnagdim for that matter?

I read part of R. Gil Student's sefer on this (he's the creator of the blog formerly known as Hirhurim, and now called Torah Musings). He treats the Rebbe with a lot of respect, but he doesn't think it's possible, although I never finished reading it. It's located here.
http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/

Offline Drago

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 03:27:55 PM »
Thanks for your detailed response CBS! I'll read through it again when I have more time, and post some follow up questions.
I appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss.

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 06:20:12 PM »
My Background:
Before I start, I want to discuss my (tangential) history with Chabad. My mother became religious with Chabad when in university and I went to their day camp for a few summers when younger. While on vacation from high school, I would often daven with them during the week since it was pleasant and they had the latest local minyan (8:00am). I had a relationship with the local Chabad rav whom I respected a lot (this is in Cleveland). I would also volunteer with a different Chabad that packaged food for Russian immigrants.

When in Yeshiva in Israel, we were instructed by the rosh kollel that it was best to not daven in a Chabad due to the risk that they were mashichists (ppl who believed that the deceased Rebbe is the mashiach). After that, I have rarely davened with a Chabad minyan, although I would say that I never experienced overt messianism in the US. However, when I was in Venice, I davened in the Chabad there and was taken aback by the chanting after davening as well as other stuff, s/t I hadn't experienced in the US.
how about you start by asking your rosh kolel what the halachik basis is for saying Lubavitch "messianism" is kefira or avoda zarah or whatever the problem is and then we'll have what to talk about. (and I'm not talking about the handfull of people who are considered absolutely crazy even by the meshichist standards -and have been denounced even by the "meshichist" rabonim)

I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.

btw, I don't know if anybody else here remembers this, but there was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...

Offline Side incomer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 06:55:52 PM »
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.
+1.
I'm not chabad, but I'm a chasid. I was very long waiting to hear such an explanation from a chabad'ska, to prove that they are actually normal human beings. I knew that till now, but for some reason there is some misunderstandings in this aspect, that I and a lot of other people didn't understand, and I could say until now.
Well said!!
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 07:06:39 PM »
I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.
Not necessarily does reuvens' rosh yeshiva "hate" lubavitch. I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah... I strongly agree with your suggestion that the conversation should start with sources that moshiach can not be from the dead. I have had this conversation with people a countless amount of times and 99% of the time the person saying chabad is kefirah just say that that is what their rosh yeshiva told them and it is just so obviously the same thing. as christianity. In Judeaism everything starts and ends with what halacha says. Our emotions have no place in dictating the opinion of the torah. This being said from from every Jews birth they are raised to believe that christianity and the idea of Yashka being the messiah is pure evil, in addition through many thousands of false messiahs in our history we have a sort to say automatic rejection of believing in a particular person as being the messiah. This can be found in all parts of the jewish world: reformed, conservative, modern orthodox, litvish etc. Hence when a chasidic group makes a claim that their rebbe is the messiah it is automatically rejected. This way of thought is not necessarily from a bad thing because it saves allot of people from false beliefs. The problem arises when a group has a claim based on halacha it also is rejected with no further research.
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Offline JEWDA

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2012, 07:11:17 PM »
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.
I never knew thers so many ppl who believe moshiach is dead.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2012, 07:14:02 PM »
He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
I am sure everyone could benefit from your opinions and answers. Why not post them here? 

I never knew thers so many ppl who believe moshiach is dead.
Is and could be are practicaly opposites especially in this context.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:18:23 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2012, 07:18:27 PM »

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2012, 07:21:10 PM »
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?
For starters they are not from the davidic line.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 07:24:48 PM »
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?

Now that's just ignorance...
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 07:33:34 PM »
Now that's just ignorance...
not sure what that means. what part was ignorance did u mean...
For starters they are not from the davidic line.
i think you get my point but if you want lets start from david and work our way down. im sure we can find someone greater/earlier

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2012, 07:34:40 PM »
I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah...
You're right.
I probably should've been more sensitive. It was an emotional response to his (rosh kolel's?) attack against lubavitch and the shluchim through whom his "mother became religious with Chabad" and "the local Chabad rav whom I respected a lot".

(That being said I still stand by what I said and I still believe it to be true.)

Oh, and while I can see that it might not paint me in the best light, I fail to see how it will  "do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah..."