Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 376275 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1500 on: January 12, 2024, 10:18:20 AM »

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1501 on: January 12, 2024, 10:19:24 AM »
Another thing that gets people nervous: Infallibility.

My impression was is that the Rebbe is infallible isnít limited to meshichists, CMIIW. Being fallible is part of being mortal.

Perhaps this isnít specific to Lubavitch, it can be an issue by other groups, even litvish by the extreme ďDaas TorahĒ types. But my impression is that itís more of a devolved idea by Lubavitchers.
I think that's common among any devoted chosid to their Rebbe and part of what helps connect them to G-d. A tzadik gommur of the Tanya is someone that has no yetzer hara and not only never sinned, but can't sin.

And yes, Daas Torah types to their leaders/tzadikim as well.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1502 on: January 12, 2024, 10:24:27 AM »
I think that's common among any devoted chosid to their Rebbe and part of what helps connect them to G-d. A tzadik of the Tanya is someone that has no yetzer hara and not only never sinned, but can't sin.

And yes, Daas Torah types to their leaders/tzadikim as well.
Personally I donít believe in this at all
אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה טוב ולא יחטא

Iíd be curious to see a source על דרך זה in a non Lubavitch sefer. Find it hard to believe that others believe that way about their leaders.

I suppose youíll say that they believe it even if they donít say it.

Offline gutlib

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1503 on: January 12, 2024, 10:26:19 AM »
I think that's common among any devoted chosid to their Rebbe and part of what helps connect them to G-d. A tzadik gommur of the Tanya is someone that has no yetzer hara and not only never sinned, but can't sin.

And yes, Daas Torah types to their leaders/tzadikim as well.
Nowadays people prefer to believe only in dead Rebbeis, it doesn't demand anything.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1504 on: January 12, 2024, 10:27:56 AM »
Nowadays people prefer to believe only in dead Rebbeis, it doesn't demand anything.
Ridiculous to say this about Lubavitch as they work very hard in fulfilling the Rebbes directives.

Offline gutlib

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1505 on: January 12, 2024, 10:31:34 AM »
Personally I don’t believe in this at all
אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה טוב ולא יחטא

Its not the way you should write.
i have nothing to do with Chabad, but you cant say I don’t believe in this at all On the Ball Hatnya, its learned all over. (I heard once that they found a Tanya in Harv Shteinman's home after he passed away.)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1506 on: January 12, 2024, 10:33:54 AM »
Its not the way you should write.
i have nothing to do with Chabad, but you cant say I donít believe in this at all On the Ball Hatnya, its learned all over. (I heard once that they found a Tanya in Harv Shteinman's home after he passed away.)
Not following how the Baal hatanya being learned all over should make me think tzaddikim are infallible

Offline gutlib

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1507 on: January 12, 2024, 10:33:59 AM »
Ridiculous to say this about Lubavitch as they work very hard in fulfilling the Rebbes directives.
I didn't mean it in that direction, it's no problem but you also need someone alive, to guide you with today's challenges.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1508 on: January 12, 2024, 10:35:17 AM »
Not following how the Baal hatanya being learned all over should make me think tzaddikim are infallible
Not all tzaddikim, a tzadik gomur of the Tanya is extremely rare!

Nearly all tzaddikim are either a tzadik sheaino gomur or a beinoni of the Tanya, both of which are very lofty levels, but are certainly not infallable.

For reference, Rabbah thought he was a beinoni, as defined in the Tanya.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1509 on: January 12, 2024, 10:36:21 AM »
I didn't mean it in that direction, it's no problem but you also need someone alive, to guide you with today's challenges.
The Rebbe pushed asei licha rav to get a mashpia for everyone. And The Rebbe wasn't talking about himself.
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Offline gutlib

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1510 on: January 12, 2024, 10:36:35 AM »
Not following how the Baal hatanya being learned all over should make me think tzaddikim are infallible
you can ask questions, but there is a way how to ask. (the Rashah and the Chacham in the Haggadah also ask the same question but the difference is how you ask it)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1511 on: January 12, 2024, 10:37:16 AM »
you can ask questions, but there is a way how to ask. (the Rashah and the Chacham in the Haggadah also ask the same question but the difference is how you ask it)
Not sure what you mean, I have no question about this.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1512 on: January 12, 2024, 10:38:26 AM »
Not all tzaddikim, a tzadik gomur of the Tanya is extremely rare!

Nearly all tzaddikim are either a tzadik sheaino gomur or a beinoni of the Tanya, both of which are very lofty levels, but are certainly not infallable.

For reference, Rabbah thought he was a beinoni, as defined in the Tanya.
Does the Tanya say a tzaddik Gamur is infallible?

Do other groups claim their leader is a tzaddik gamur?

Do Lubavitchers maintain that every Lubavitcher Rebbe was a tzaddik gamur?

Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1513 on: January 12, 2024, 10:39:14 AM »
Perhaps this isnít specific to Lubavitch, it can be an issue by other groups, even litvish by the extreme ďDaas TorahĒ types. But my impression is that itís more of a devolved idea by Lubavitchers.

devolved as a personal attack

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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1514 on: January 12, 2024, 10:40:34 AM »

Offline gutlib

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1515 on: January 12, 2024, 10:41:21 AM »
Not sure what you mean, I have no question about this.
Personally, I donít believe in this at all

I think it's the wrong way to ask like this.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1516 on: January 12, 2024, 10:43:01 AM »
 
I think it's the wrong way to ask like this.
Thatís because you think itís a question, no idea why you do, doesnít sound like it to me at all.

Anyone else think so? (This is a question as indicated by a question mark)

Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1517 on: January 12, 2024, 10:44:17 AM »
Correct, that hachtaras hamelech requires the declaration and spread of that message.

To an outsider this sounds like I shouldnít break the email chain.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1518 on: January 12, 2024, 10:46:26 AM »
To an outsider this sounds like I shouldnít break the email chain.
It sounds that way to Antis as well. The Rebbe was clearly against it before his stroke as well.

There are also meshechistim who for example, may say yechi after davening, but might not spread that message other than that.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1519 on: January 12, 2024, 10:47:01 AM »
Ridiculous to say this about Lubavitch as they work very hard in fulfilling the Rebbes directives.
Just keep in mind my FIL A"h words: אלע שרייען רבי און מיינען זיך.
Feelings don't care about your facts