Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 407729 times)

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1660 on: January 14, 2024, 07:14:49 PM »
Let's not put out too much dirty laundry. I'll just state that quite a few years ago Avremel Shemtov got maftir on Shabbos Gimmel Tammuz at a minyan where I was davening in 770 main shul.

And to answer your question more directly, if it weren't for the Gabbay that supports anarchy, the answer would probably be that they could come without getting hurt.

This is kind of true, that sometimes they would be able to enter, but it's tough to go in if you're essentially playing Russian roulette on if you'll get beaten up or not.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1661 on: January 14, 2024, 07:15:43 PM »
Let's not put out too much dirty laundry. I'll just state that quite a few years ago Avremel Shemtov got maftir on Shabbos Gimmel Tammuz at a minyan where I was davening in 770 main shul.

And to answer your question more directly, if it weren't for the Gabbay that supports anarchy, the answer would probably be that they could come without getting hurt. Unfortunately, anyone who is opposed to anarchy is subject to being hurt. I was personally threatened when I tried to insist on orderly conduct when I was davening at the omud. I eventually gave up fighting when I saw that said Gabbay refused to back me up with some basic rules of conduct.
So, antis do visit 770 when they can do so without the threat of violence from tunnel diggers. Why would a meshichist not visit the Ohel when the Rebbe would visit his Shver all the time?
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1662 on: January 14, 2024, 07:16:36 PM »
This is kind of true, that sometimes they would be able to enter, but it's tough to go in if you're essentially playing Russian roulette on if you'll get beaten up or not.

In today's day and age unfortunately there's a high likelihood of being hurt. As a matter of fact, despite the lip-service letter published on Friday, a bochur was hurt on Friday night.

This discussion doesn't belong in this thread, as it has absolutely nothing to do with Moshiach (except as a reason for delay).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1663 on: January 14, 2024, 07:29:54 PM »
Let's not put out too much dirty laundry. I'll just state that quite a few years ago Avremel Shemtov got maftir on Shabbos Gimmel Tammuz at a minyan where I was davening in 770 main shul.

And to answer your question more directly, if it weren't for the Gabbay that supports anarchy, the answer would probably be that they could come without getting hurt. Unfortunately, anyone who is opposed to anarchy is subject to being hurt. I was personally threatened when I tried to insist on orderly conduct when I was davening at the omud. I eventually gave up fighting when I saw that said Gabbay refused to back me up with some basic rules of conduct. I was probably spared by the fact that rather than fight back, I told them to go ahead and hurt me, so they knew I was serious about the consequences that they would face.

Doesn't he deserve the attribute Reb?

And I highly doubt R Shemtov believes the Rebbe is moshiach,  though I may be wrong.
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1664 on: January 14, 2024, 07:32:35 PM »
No, he implied it would be his FIL, as that was his Rebbe.

The rest is extrapolation.

Correct. Does that mean there were two moshiachs simultaneously,  one for the Rebbe and one for everyone else? And of course more, once you count all the other chassidus's who should also believe the same (according to this hashkafa?)

Or maybe, just maybe, the Rebbe wasn't talking about the actual Moshiach bem David as opposed to a chassidic belief as how a chassid should act (that one should act as if).
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1665 on: January 14, 2024, 07:33:18 PM »
Doesn't he deserve the attribute Reb?

And I highly doubt R Shemtov believes the Rebbe is moshiach,  though I may be wrong.
Out of curiosity, why the obsession over who people think is moshiach anyway?

You're thinking about it more than your average Lubavitcher, who is far more concerned with how to bring moshiach than who it is.

Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1666 on: January 14, 2024, 07:35:18 PM »
Out of curiosity, why the obsession over who people think is moshiach anyway?


You're thinking about it more than your average Lubavitcher, who is far more concerned with how to bring moshiach than who it is.

I find it disturbing. It's my own personal thing. Just as if I would find out a person believes Rav Shach or R Nachman is. It shows a lack of clear thinking.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1667 on: January 14, 2024, 07:39:00 PM »
I find it disturbing. It's my own personal thing. Just as if I would find out a person believes Rav Shach or R Nachman is. It shows a lack of clear thinking.
Meh!

Shaving a woman's head or forcing them to Uber with strangers rather than drive may sound crazy to me, but life goes on.

Ignored? Was discussed up thread.

Besides, itís a high expectation for a religious group to not follow their leader because they suspect heís wrong.

I think itís religious abuse to force women to shave their heads. Try to convince those groups that those who endorsed it were wrong.

Try to convince any yeshvish guy that many Rishonim didnít understand embryology the way it actually happens.

Etc etc
AKA, unless something violates halacha, there's a large tent for how people practice Judaism. In the end, you just need to respect that, even if you think it's wrong.
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1668 on: January 14, 2024, 07:42:25 PM »
Meh!

Shaving a woman's head or forcing them to Uber with strangers rather than drive may sound crazy to me, but life goes on.

Those both bother me tremendously.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1669 on: January 14, 2024, 07:44:48 PM »
Those both bother me tremendously.
And people who think Rishonims understanding of embryology need to reflect reality?

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1670 on: January 14, 2024, 07:45:51 PM »
Those both bother me tremendously.
But you can always find extreme beliefs and practices in every sect of every religion. Gotta just be your best self and live and let live. You're not going to change anything other than giving yourself a headache.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1671 on: January 14, 2024, 07:48:34 PM »
It shows a lack of clear thinking.
Itís dogmatic. Any secular person will tell you, in fact even some religious, the same about that believing civilization started less than 6000 years ago

Offline whacked1

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1672 on: January 14, 2024, 07:52:12 PM »
AKA, unless something violates halacha, there's a large tent for how people practice Judaism. In the end, you just need to respect that, even if you think it's wrong.
Right, but many believe that it violates the halochos of avodah zarah then there is no respecting that if you think its wrong

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1673 on: January 14, 2024, 07:53:24 PM »
Right, but many believe that it violates the halochos of avodah zarah then there is no respecting that if you think its wrong
Then they're ignorant of halacha and should become better educated.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1674 on: January 14, 2024, 07:53:55 PM »
Right, but many believe that it violates the halochos of avodah zarah then there is no respecting that if you think its wrong
Hold up!

No one believes believing the Rebbe is mashiach is ע״ז!!

Offline whacked1

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1675 on: January 14, 2024, 08:00:14 PM »
Hold up!

No one believes believing the Rebbe is mashiach is ע״ז!!
That is false. I've heard directly from people who i consider gedolim (i'm not going to post names, but you can pm)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1676 on: January 14, 2024, 08:00:38 PM »
Itís dogmatic. Any secular person will tell you, in fact even some religious, the same about that believing civilization started less than 6000 years ago

Personally I don't care what others outside the Torah world views are and how they view us, I do care more about views/practices within the Torah world that seems to be strange according to how I see things to be standard and ought to be. Not that it has any real effect other than making for good argument hocks.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1677 on: January 14, 2024, 08:01:56 PM »
That is false. I've heard directly from people who i consider gedolim (i'm not going to post names, but you can pm)
Then they are wrong :)

I believe you are referring to other things, not just mashiach

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1678 on: January 14, 2024, 08:02:44 PM »
Then they're ignorant of halacha and should become better educated.
there's a large tent for how people practice Judaism. In the end, you just need to respect that, even if you think it's wrong.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1679 on: January 14, 2024, 08:03:38 PM »

Nope doesnít work on something so basic