Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 407738 times)

Offline whacked1

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1680 on: January 14, 2024, 08:04:20 PM »
Then they are wrong :)

I believe you are referring to other things, not just mashiach
This was regarding openly saying the rebbe is mashiach, yechi yarmulkas, and yellow pins....

Offline whacked1

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1681 on: January 14, 2024, 08:05:40 PM »
Nope doesnít work on someone so basic
Actually this is kinda the basics of Judaism. (At least how I understand halacha  :D )

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1682 on: January 14, 2024, 08:07:29 PM »
This was regarding openly saying the rebbe is mashiach, yechi yarmulkas, and yellow pins....
Actually this is kinda the basics of Judaism. (At least how I understand halacha  :D )
This is totally false.

Feel free to try to explain your understanding of Halacha

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1683 on: January 14, 2024, 08:09:30 PM »
Personally I don't care what others outside the Torah world views are and how they view us, I do care more about views/practices within the Torah world that seems to be strange according to how I see things to be standard and ought to be. Not that it has any real effect other than making for good argument hocks.
Part of being religious is thinking everyone else is either a nut or frei as the wind. And everyone sees all of us as nuts. Nunu.
Live and let live.
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Offline whacked1

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1684 on: January 14, 2024, 08:12:18 PM »

Feel free to try to explain your understanding of Halacha
I'm no expert in halacha and therefore wont defend a position. This I heard from someone i consider to be a gadol , he said (to his talmidim, at the time I considered myself one), not to daven in a chabad house/ eat the shchita/ etc that practices those beliefs in open.

What his basis was in halacha, i didnt ask (nor did, or do, i really care).

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1685 on: January 14, 2024, 08:15:05 PM »
I'm no expert in halacha and therefore wont defend a position. This I heard from someone i consider to be a gadol , he said (to his talmidim, at the time I considered myself one), not to daven in a chabad house/ eat the shchita/ etc that practices those beliefs in open.

What his basis was in halacha, i didnt ask (nor did, or do, i really care).
Amaratzus and/or sinas chinam.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1686 on: January 14, 2024, 08:15:51 PM »
Part of being religious is thinking everyone else is either a nut or frei as the wind. And everyone sees all of us as nuts. Nunu.
Live and let live.
I really don't think so. What I think many people see (maybe I'm wrong) is that Lubavitcher Chassidim and their Rebbe are truly beautiful and a step up from most Chassidic groups today and and it's amazing to see how the Chassidim are so fully invested in the Torah and their Rebbe, but the flip side of that is seemingly not being goires anything else to the point where the only possibility of Mashiach would be the Rebbe which is a bit off-putting and a shame because without that the Lubavitcher Chassidim could be beshlaimus and it also leads to people to disrespect their vast maalos due to their perceived "narrow" mindness.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1687 on: January 14, 2024, 08:17:46 PM »
I really don't think so. What I think many people see (maybe I'm wrong) is that Lubavitcher Chassidim and their Rebbe are truly beautiful and a step up from most Chassidic groups today and and it's amazing to see how the Chassidim are so fully invested in the Torah and their Rebbe, but the flip side of that is seemingly not being goires anything else to the point where the only possibility of Mashiach would be the Rebbe which is a bit off-putting and a shame because without that the Lubavitcher Chassidim could be beshlaimus and it also leads to people to disrespect their vast maalos due to their perceived "narrow" mindness.
Who in the world cares if there are some that donít consider another possibility. Itís a prediction, weíll find out soon enough.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1688 on: January 14, 2024, 08:18:20 PM »
Amaratzus and/or sinas chinam.
I don't know who Whacked1 is referring to here, but I think I can take an educated guess based on some of his posts, and it is someone who is a big yaden and also respects the Lubavitcher Rebbe a lot and quotes him in his seforim. So I don't think any of the above applies to him. It just sounds like he defines 2 scoops a little differently than you (saying this without knowing details).

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1689 on: January 14, 2024, 08:18:44 PM »
Who in the world cares if there are some that donít consider another possibility. Itís a prediction, weíll find out soon enough.
People who love Lubavitch care, that's exactly my point.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1690 on: January 14, 2024, 08:20:06 PM »
I'm no expert in halacha and therefore wont defend a position. This I heard from someone i consider to be a gadol , he said (to his talmidim, at the time I considered myself one), not to daven in a chabad house/ eat the shchita/ etc that practices those beliefs in open.

What his basis was in halacha, i didnt ask (nor did, or do, i really care).
Safe to assume that this had nothing to do with them believing the Rebbe is mashiach and everything to do with thinking that they think heís more than that

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1691 on: January 14, 2024, 08:23:57 PM »
I don't know who Whacked1 is referring to here, but I think I can take an educated guess based on some of his posts, and it is someone who is a big yaden and also respects the Lubavitcher Rebbe a lot and quotes him in his seforim. So I don't think any of the above applies to him. It just sounds like he defines 2 scoops a little differently than you (saying this without knowing details).

Safe to assume that this had nothing to do with them believing the Rebbe is mashiach and everything to do with thinking that they think heís more than that
Then that would fall under sinas chinam IMHO. Probably stemming from believing L"H or MS"R without verifying firsthand.
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Offline whacked1

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1692 on: January 14, 2024, 08:28:02 PM »
I don't know who Whacked1 is referring to here, but I think I can take an educated guess based on some of his posts, and it is someone who is a big yaden and also respects the Lubavitcher Rebbe a lot and quotes him in his seforim. So I don't think any of the above applies to him. It just sounds like he defines 2 scoops a little differently than you (saying this without knowing details).
100% This galdol spoke with the utmost kavod regarding the rebbe.
Safe to assume that this had nothing to do with them believing the Rebbe is mashiach and everything to do with thinking that they think heís more than that
Again, not only mashiach but the full package upthread.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 10:51:58 PM by whacked1 »

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1693 on: January 14, 2024, 08:28:26 PM »
I really don't think so. What I think many people see (maybe I'm wrong) is that Lubavitcher Chassidim and their Rebbe are truly beautiful and a step up from most Chassidic groups today and and it's amazing to see how the Chassidim are so fully invested in the Torah and their Rebbe, but the flip side of that is seemingly not being goires anything else to the point where the only possibility of Mashiach would be the Rebbe which is a bit off-putting and a shame

Everything that Lubavitchers have accomplished is literally a totzah of believing the Rebbe to be the Nasi/Moshiach Hador. The source of that is what the Lubavitcher Rebbeim said about their own Rebbeim.

If he wasn't the Nosi in their eyes, why would they move to Timbuktu to get Yidden there to do more mitzvos?

Would anyone here listen their their Rabbi if they told them to drop what they're doing and move to Madagascar tomorrow?

because without that the Lubavitcher Chassidim could be beshlaimus and it also leads to people to disrespect their vast maalos due to their perceived "narrow" mindness.

This is laughable. There were fights against Chabad hashkafa/chasidus/Rebbeim/chasidim/mivtzomin/kiruv long before any meshichists were around.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 08:32:14 PM by Dan »
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1694 on: January 14, 2024, 08:28:54 PM »
without that the Lubavitcher Chassidim could be beshlaimus

That's kind of an oxymoron, as I've pointed out previously on DDF. I'm sure @TimT or @aygart can find the quote faster than I can.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline whacked1

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1695 on: January 14, 2024, 08:30:16 PM »
Then that would fall under sinas chinam IMHO. Probably stemming from believing L"H or MS"R without verifying firsthand.
Just as your entitled to your mashiach opinion, your entitled to this one. But that is not how this person rolled. I spent a lot of time with him.

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1696 on: January 14, 2024, 08:33:08 PM »
Just as your entitled to your mashiach opinion, your entitled to this one. But that is not how this person rolled. I spent a lot of time with him.
Sorry, but saying this without having the background information or argument just isn't worth much. Certainly not something that should be brought into a debate.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1697 on: January 14, 2024, 08:41:17 PM »
Everything that Lubavitchers have accomplished is literally a totzah of believing the Rebbe to be the Nasi/Moshiach Hador. The source of that is what the Lubavitcher Rebbeim said about their own Rebbeim.

If he wasn't the Nosi in their eyes, why would they move to Timbuktu to get Yidden there to do more mitzvos?

Would anyone here listen their their Rabbi if they told them to drop what they're doing and move to Madagascar tomorrow?


By that logic saying he's God would have accomplish even more. Of course the more you idolize someone the more you'll go in fire for his word. It boils down to what is normative practices and the terms like Nasi/Moshiach Hador is likely beyond that.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1698 on: January 14, 2024, 08:50:57 PM »
Then that would fall under sinas chinam IMHO. Probably stemming from believing L"H or MS"R without verifying firsthand.
I really don't know why you would say that. You also agree that there are lunatics in Lubavitch, and you don't hate them.
Everything that Lubavitchers have accomplished is literally a totzah of believing the Rebbe to be the Nasi/Moshiach Hador. The source of that is what the Lubavitcher Rebbeim said about their own Rebbeim.

If he wasn't the Nosi in their eyes, why would they move to Timbuktu to get Yidden there to do more mitzvos?

Would anyone here listen their their Rabbi if they told them to drop what they're doing and move to Madagascar tomorrow?
The level of the Dveikus to the Rebbe is indeed to be admired, but no need to almost sound like a Xtian chas veshalom.

This is laughable. There were fights against Chabad hashkafa/chasidus/Rebbeim/chasidim/mivtzomin/kiruv long before any meshichists were around.
Unfortunately, there were many fights once upon a time. I'm talking about people who respect Lubavitch a lot and can't reconcile the factions who make the Rebbe as almost something Xtians would do.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 09:02:47 PM by yelped »

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1699 on: January 14, 2024, 08:58:27 PM »
By that logic saying he's God would have accomplish even more. Of course the more you idolize someone the more you'll go in fire for his word. It boils down to what is normative practices and the terms like Nasi/Moshiach Hador is likely beyond that.
I really don't know why you would say that. You also agree that there are lunatics in Lubavitch, and you don't hate them.The level of the Dveikus to the Rebbe is indeed to be admired, but no need to almost sound like a Xtian chas veshalom.
Unfortunately, there were many fights once upon a time. I'm talking about people who respect Lubavitch a lot and can't reconcile the factions who make the Rebbe as almost something Xtians would do.
There is halacha and there is anti-halacha. Obviously saying a man is a G-d is A"Z, so that logic is pathetic.

Other religions are all based on Judaism. Doing something they would or wouldn't do doesn't factor into how we practice Judaism. We created moshiach, not them and we don't stop obsessing with it just because they're obssessed with it.

You don't like what the Chabad Chassidus says about Nosi Hador or a Tzadik Gomer? Nunu.

You want what Lubavitch has done around the world, but not the devotion to a Rebbe where you would go to the end of the Earth and dedicate your life for his needs? Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 09:03:45 PM by Dan »
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